Talk:Walford Davies

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English, Welsh or British?

I'm not sure we can call him Welsh - he was born in England (just) and the Grove dictionary calls him English. I'm going to play it safe, though (he did spend a lot of time in Wales after all, and did a lot for music there), and change it to British rather than English. --Camembert

He certainly wasn't Welsh by birth — Oswestry is in England and there's no mention of any Welsh parentage in the DNB or Grove. Wilus

In a recent academic book Jürgen Schaarwächter writes "[...]born only a few miles from Wales and often referred to as a Welshman".^[1] Bruce Eder writes "Davies became one of the leading exponents of Welsh music and musicians, serving as the chairman of the Welsh National Council of Music and acquiring the eternal gratitude of all Welsh people of a musical bent (which by and large meant the entire Welsh population)."^[2] The first quote gives a good case for at least dual nationality, and the second suggests that the Welsh people thought of him as one of their own. The existence of a biography in the Dictionary of Welsh Biography implies that he was Welsh. His wife was Welsh.^[3]

Oswestry is a border town with strong links to Wales. The Wikipedia article says "Oswestry was traditionally a Welsh speaking town and the parish church conducted services in Welsh until 1814." Birthplace is not a reliable indication of Welsh identity, for example the Liverpool article says "In 1813, 10 per cent of Liverpool's population was Welsh, leading to the city becoming known as "the capital of North Wales."". Wikipedia:Nationality of people from the United Kingdom is useful for this issue.

I propose we describe him as British and change the categories accordingly. We could mention his strong links to Wales in the lead paragrapgh. I will leave this for a few days to allow discussion, to try to avert an edit war. User:Tim riley last changed the lead paragraph from British to English and may wish to comment. Verbcatcher (talk) 19:04, 12 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I try to distinguish between English, N Irish, Scottish and Welsh for citizens of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland: "the British poet Robbie Burns", "the British playwright and poet Dylan Thomas" and "the British poet W B Yeats" seem unhelpful and faintly ludicrous, but if I have wrongly shanghaied Davies from Welsh to English I am very happy to recant. But if he was English, let us say so. "British" is to be avoided, I think, because there is no nation called "Britain" and our passports are in the name of the UK – excuse me while I laugh hollowly as the UK disintegrates around me. Tim riley talk 20:59, 12 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

We should use the most appropriate nationality case-by-case. "British" sometimes seems more natural in the Edwardian period at the height of the British Empire: it would not be unreasonable to describe Rudyard Kipling or Edwin Lutyens as British. Also, British Asian is an established identity. We have overlapping identities, and it is sometimes difficult to determine the appropriate term.

However, I have found two reputable reference books which support "Welsh". The 1955 edition of the Oxford Companion to Music says: "He was of Welsh parentage, his father having been an active worker for the popularisation of music in mid-Wales."^[4] The 1980 edition of the Concise Oxford Dictionary of Music says "Welsh composer and organist".^[5] (These are not independent sources as the 1980 book is "based on the original publication by Percy Scholes".) Based on this I propose changing unambiguously to "Welsh", citing the 1980 book. I would also mention his Welsh parentage in the Early years section, citing the 1955 book. Verbcatcher (talk) 23:10, 12 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know that one's parents' nationality is decisive: for instance, Sullivan had not one drop of English blood (what little wasn't Irish was Franco-Italian) but he identified as English. And that's the point, I think. According to Davies's biographer, H. C. Colles, "Walford used to say that he believed he was one eighth Welsh" (Colles, p. 11). It isn't hard to see why Davies took that view: his parents were both born in England (John Whitridge in 1821 and Susannah in 1831), and were married (1860) in England, and domiciled (all the censuses I can find them in) in England. Tangentially, Davies was eminent enough to get a blue plaque, which I see says "English organist, composer and educationalist", but that's by the bye. As I say, I usually prefer to be more specific than "British" when possible, and in the present case "Welsh" is clearly wrong. (Scholes, who must have known Davies personally, ought to have done his homework, and at the very least have read the one full-length biography of the subject. I see from the WP article that Scholes was not known for his conventional scholarship.) As to Davies, does being seven-eighths English qualify one to be English? I hope so: I call myself English despite having one German and one Irish great-grandfather, making me less English by volume than Davies was! – Tim riley talk 10:27, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The Oxford music website (subscription required) was down yesterday morning, when I wrote the above, but it is back in operation now. The current edition of The Oxford Companion to Music corrects Scholes's error, and describes Davies as "English composer, organist, and broadcaster" (article by Paul Griffiths and Jeremy Dibble). And the most authoritative musical reference work of all, Grove, calls him "English organist, composer and educationist" (article by Hugh Ottaway and Lewis Foreman). – Tim riley talk 06:25, 14 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Schaarwächter, Jürgen (2015). Two Centuries of British Symphonism: From the beginnings to 1945. A preliminary survey. Vol. 1. Georg Olms Verlag. p. 256. ISBN 3487152274.
^ Eder, Bruce. "Henry Walford Davies". Allmusic.
^ McLean, John Charles. "DAVIES, Sir HENRY WALFORD". Dictionary of Welsh Biography. National Library of Wales.
^ Scholes, Percy (1955). The Oxford Companion to Music (9th ed.). Oxford University Press. pp. 279–280.
^ Kennedy, Michael (1980). The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Music : based on the original publication by Percy Scholes (3rd ed.). Oxford: Oxford University Press. p. 168. ISBN 019311320-1.

Surname

A goodgle search on

"Walford Davies" OR "Henry Davies"

seems to indicate his surname is "Walford Davies" , tho the article calls him Davies. In the absence of evidence for Davies as surname, the references to him as "Davies" should be changed to "Walford Davies".
--Jerzy•t 23:51, 20 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Grove lists him under D for Davies. It's clear from the article that Walford was never part of his surname, as it was his grandmother's maiden name. His full legal name was Henry Walford Davies, but he preferred to be known as plain Walford Davies. JackofOz 02:58, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Not just sacred music

I think he also wrote a suite of 8 nursery rhymes (including Miller's daughter, four and twenty tailors, and a prayer "Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, bless the bed that I lie on..." which, with the exception of the prayer, are not religious - but are a great sing.

Career

I have corrected year he was appointed first Director of Music RAF from "In that year [1917]" to "In 1918", the Royal Air Force having been formed from amalgamation of Royal Flying Corps and Royal Naval Air Service on 1 April 1918.Cloptonson (talk) 19:13, 31 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Other Walford Davieses

Are Professor Damian Walford Davies of Cardiff University or Professor Jason Walford Davies of Bangor University related to H. Walford Davies, possibly great-grandsons? This seems credible as Walford is an unusual name. Verbcatcher (talk) 18:05, 12 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

RAF rank

In 1918 he was appointed director of music of the Royal Air Force, with the rank of major.

Are you sure that the RAF ever used the rank of major? Valetude (talk) 00:51, 29 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Initially until some time after the 1918 Armistice when the rank system changed to what is used today, the Royal Air Force rank system mirrored that of the British Army, from which the Royal Flying Corps element came when the service was formed by amalgamation with the Royal Naval Air Service in April of 1918.Cloptonson (talk) 20:07, 14 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Schaarwächter, Jürgen (2015). Two Centuries of British Symphonism: From the beginnings to 1945. A preliminary survey. Vol. 1. Georg Olms Verlag. p. 256. ISBN 3487152274.

[2] Eder, Bruce. "Henry Walford Davies". Allmusic.

[3] McLean, John Charles. "DAVIES, Sir HENRY WALFORD". Dictionary of Welsh Biography. National Library of Wales.

[4] Scholes, Percy (1955). The Oxford Companion to Music (9th ed.). Oxford University Press. pp. 279–280.

[5] Kennedy, Michael (1980). The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Music : based on the original publication by Percy Scholes (3rd ed.). Oxford: Oxford University Press. p. 168. ISBN 019311320-1.

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