Talk:Franz von Papen

SA and SS

This article never defines what SA means or SS means - it assumes the reader knows. Skuld-Chan (talk) 17:24, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Older

On the Reichsmordweche, the Nazi's killed his secretary and his speech writer. He then goes on to become the ambassodor for the Nazi regime. This man has something serious wrong with his upstairs. If someone killed the people working under me, I would work for their destruction and escape from them. There is something psycologically wrong with all these people that continued to help the regime when it went around killing others of their own kind. This is absolutely ludicrous. This is a sign of the times. This is unbelievable. To act as an ambassodor after these people killed your secretary and your speech writer, Von Papen needs a head examination. That man is not thinking right. It is a mark of inconsistencies. The mark that Socrates saw. The mystery of iniquity. I am beside myself in stupefication.WHEELER 16:17, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I conducted an unofficial survey of friends and co-workers about von Papen's attitude. They all practically said it was normal. Everyone is out for themselves. I find it strange and unreal. If I had some grants to research this---this could turn into a book. This characteristic of Von Papen is the character of all of Germany and the secret to understanding the Third Reich. Von Papen was a nihilist. There are several forms of nihilism, liberalism, realism, vitalism. It was a majority of teachers that joined the Nazi party. They were liberals, they taught the German people liberalism, nihilism. This is what this is all about.WHEELER 13:56, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

According to the memoires of Wolfgang zu Putliz, a diplomat then working close to what was happening in Berlin, a deal was made by Von Papen involving a large bribe for Hindenburg to change his position on Hitler. It may well be that the murder Von Papens close staff was a cover up. The book of Putliz was never taken serious in the West, he ended up in East Germany, but contains a huge amount of inside information on Nazi pre war activities. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.86.90.39 (talk) 21:03, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

Some Additional Perspectives

One author who wrote in some detail about von Papen, the late British politician Airey Neave, was distinguished by having encountered this man (and the other principal indicted Nazi war criminals) by virtue of having served on the British Military War Crimes Executive. indeed, Neave was chosen to serve the indictment to von Papen and the other leading Nazis in their cells at Nuremberg. Neave's book, Nuremberg : A Personal Record of the Trial of the Major Nazi War Criminals (Hodder & Stoughton, ISBN 0-340-18128-1) discusses von Papen in the chapter entitled A Tale of Two Gentlemen (pp. 145-159), beginning halfway down page 148. Neave describes von Papen (in a style that leaves no doubt as to how he regarded von Papen) with a range of tersely dismissive comments regarding both von Papen's competence and character. Typical quotes include:

• "I felt a sense of genuine amusement at meeting him, since Franz von Papen was best known to me as a man who had frequent trouble with confidential documents. To many of the public he was known for little else. He was thought to be a dilettante, a joke figure in politics. The older generation remembered him for his incompetence as a spy-master in the United States during the First World War." (p.148)

• " His efforts at sabotage were amateurish in the extreme. He gave 500 dollars to a man named Werner Horn to blow up Vanceborough Bridge in Canada but the man was arrested on the border." (p.148)
• "Unreliable though his memoirs may be, they describe his worst gaffe in the United States, which also involved Dr Heinrich Albert, Finanacial Adviser to the German Embassy in Washington. Albert was using funds collected for the German Red Cross to help finance von Papen's interest in the Bridgeport Projectile Company (a dummy company set up specifically with the aim of swallowing up the output of American arms manufacturers to prevent said output falling into British hands - my addition). Albert fell asleep in a train in New York with a briefcase full of plans and letters involving von Papen. When he left the train at 50th Street, he forgot the briefcase. Suddenly remembering, he rushed back only to see a man racing off with it in a taxi." (p.149)
• "Among his associates in America was the equally incompetent naval intelligence officer Captain von Rintelen, author of The Dark Invader. Rintelen was sent by the German Navy in 1915 to organise strikes among American longshoremen and the placing of bombs in ships. If von Papen was careless, Rintelen seems to have been slightly cracked." (p.151)
• "Rintelen's fury against von Papen knew no bounds. In The Dark Invader he described him as a 'foolish and stupid intriguer'. A more serious accusation was that his capacity for losing xecret documents on plans for rebellion in Ireland and India and sabotage in the United States, led to the imprisonment or execution of German agents." (pp.151-152)
• "From an early age he had no doubts about his own importance, The statement which he made to me that afternoon (during the serving of the indictment) was exquisite. "I cannot understand why I find myself in this postiion, Herr Major". (Neave replies) "Why not read the indictment and you will see" ... von Papen was slow to realise his true position at Nuremberg. He wrote to his wife after my visit saying that he expected the proceedings to last two or three days and that he would be with her by the end of November." (p.152)
• (On the subject of von Papen's appointment as Chancellor - Neave quotes the French Ambassador) : "The appointment was at first greeted with incredulous amazement; when the news was confirmed, everyone smiled. There is something about Papen that prevents either his friends or his enemies from taking him seriously; he bears the stamp of frivolity; he is not a personality of the first rank. He is one of those people who are considered capable of plunging into a dangerous adventure; they pick up every gauntlet, accept every wager. If he succeeds in an undertaking he is very pleased; if he fails it doesn't bother him." (pp.153-154)
• "Hindenburg's devious confidant, General Kurt von Schleicher, kept von Papen in power till his resignation on November 17th. It is said that when people portested that von Papen had no head for administration von Schleicher replied 'He doesn't need a head, his job is to be a hat'." (p.154)
• He could not bear not to be in the game, even if he didn't like his fellow players." (p.156)
• " ... his conscience was elastic ..." (p.157)
• (Recalling the diagnosis of Dr Douglas M. Kelley, the Nuremberg prison psychiatrist) "Von Papen's attitude is perfectly rational ... except for his inability to abide by the accepted code of honesty and loyalty, either in word or in act." (p.159)

Von Papen wrote a book, entitled simply Memoirs, which was published in 1952 by André Deutsch. in a footnote on page 149, Neave makes the following observation:

• Sir John Wheeler-Bennett, who knew von Papen, considered his memoirs "remarkable for for their mendacity than their historical value".

The view of both Neave and Wheeler-Bennett seems to be that von Papen inhabited a kind of magic circle within which he was insulated from the consequences of both his incompetence and his character defects. They also describe him as having a fundamentally complacent personality, citing his surprise at the chain of subsequent events following his being declared persona non grata by the American administration. Apparently even after this, and after the public scandal following the publication of the Albert papers outlining his plans for espionage in the United States (the Albert papers were the principal ammunition used by the Americans in their decision), von Papen travelled on a liner accompanied by a swathe of top secret documents relating to his and other German agents' activities, without even taking elementary security precautions, only for his luggage to be searched by the British Secret Service when the liner docked at Falmouth. These included cheque stubs for sums of money paid to assorted saboteurs, and a payment made to an agent called Hoegen, bearing the legend "Dum dum inquiry". As Neave said after describing this (p. 151), "It can be imagined what Allied propagandists were able to do with this information".

Neave encountered von Papen on a number of occasions during the Nuremberg trial, and makes a brief mention, for example, of the difference in perceptions between von Papen and most other observers at Nuremberg on the quality of von Papen's chosen defence counsel. von Papen regarded him highly, while most of the legally trained persons present at the Tribunal (including Neave himself) regarded von Papen's counsel as utterly dreadful. Anyone seeking clues as to why this man behaved as he did under Hitler will discover a rich seam to be mined in Neave's book. Calilasseia 23:55, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Header levels

Someone at 216.136.121.2 changed the heading Vice Chancellor and Ambassador under Hitler from a second-level heading to a third-level header, thereby placing it under the Chancellorship second level heading. This is incorrect, as von Papen's chancellorship ended in December 1932, a month before Hitler was named as Germany's chancellor. Unless someone objects, I am going to revert the edit; von Papen's work under Hitler was not part of von Papen's chancellorship and therefore does not fit temporally into that section. — JonRoma 17:52, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

I have made the above change. — JonRoma 05:25, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Imperial Chancellor of Germany

In the third paragraph Hitler is described as the Imperial Chancellor of Germany. What empire? Was the title still going 15 years after Germany lost it's pre WWI empire? GrahamBould 07:48, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

It is a misleading translation of the title "Reichskanzler", which was the official title 1871 to 1945 - it has nothing to do with a colonial Empire (as Graham takes the word) but with the name of the German nation state "Deutsches Reich", which actually can mean a Königreich (King-dom) or a Kaiserreich (Empire) - since it was presided over by an Emperor the term Empire is used in English. Since the state only changed its form of government in 1918 and was not replaced by some other entity, the name Deutsches Reich stuck (it did not explicitly indicate monarchy) and hence so did the title Reichskanzler. Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 15:10, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Str1977. GrahamBould 16:27, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

The Survivor

Von Papen's life and career (or careers) represent the most awesome and unbelievable example of the true survivor in modern times. This man worked for the Kaiser, for the Weimar Republic, for the Nazis, and continued to thrive in the post-war era. This is the stuff of which movies are made. When one reflects on the fact that he was slated for execution on the Night of the Long Knives, but escaped out the back door of his house, then, instead of fleeing the country, goes back to Hitler and extracts an Ambassadorship to Vienna, one has to admire his pluck! Even William Shirer, in his "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" seemed to sense this. He describes the Nazis being brought in to the courtroom as being defeated, ruined men, with the vacant stare of the shattered men they were, except von Papen, still had "the look of the old fox about him." And he was acquitted! Amazing. He may have been foolish, misled, shallow, unreflective, or any other pejorative adjective one may concoct, but his ability to survive and thrive is second to none in recorded history.70.191.253.104 01:15, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

How can you admire this nazicollaborator?! 85.227.253.85 (talk) 15:56, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Saving Jews

The reader will wonder why von Papen was acquitted at Nuremberg (the explanation given is sparse) and why John XXIII restored his Catholic honors afterward. Some mention should be made that von Papen, working with Cardinal Roncalli (the future John XXIII) saved as many as 24,000 Jews during the Holocaust, and that this was attested to by Roncalli before the Nuremberg tribunal. 69.120.202.82 (talk) 16:18, 10 August 2013 (UTC)captcrisis

• Euh? Are you proofs of that? Von Papen was a nazicollaborator; but, a surplus, a cathollic and papist passionate; there is the cause of his aquittement! --Morenohijazo (talk) 18:45, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Glossing over your obvious bigotry, he was aquitted because on the four counts of the indictment, no guilt could be sufficently proven. At best, he could have been convicted for the count of "conspiracy" as that included bringing the Nazis to power but apparently the four judges were not convinced. Str1977 ^(talk) 15:17, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

PS. I would require proof Papen saving Jews as well but that he "was a nazicollaborator" (if that word actually makes sense in reference to a German national) is not a counter-argument at all. Schindler was a "nazicollaborator" as well. Str1977 ^(talk) 15:21, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

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Chancellorship

The large box containing the names, positions, and tenures of members of von Papen's government serves no real purpose. Only two of them are mentioned in the text. I propose to remove it-- it may belong in an article on that government, but is an unnecessary distraction here. Kablammo (talk) 02:58, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

I removed the table. Kablammo (talk) 17:51, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

Article Length and Citation Style

Clearly it has been recognized given the "article length" hat rightfully placed on this Wiki-monster. Not only does this article need to be trimmed for length (given it is even longer than the Wiki article on Charlemagne—somebody of far greater historical significance), the citation style needs to be changed to harv ref or something far less laborious and protracted than the citation format of spelling out each reference to exhaustive length. Concerning the latter issue (condensing either)--I do not have the time nor the inclination since I demonstrated to the editor responsible for this approach long ago how to utilize harv refs to shorten article citations; apparently such instructions were ignored entirely. It's a bit ridiculous. --Obenritter (talk) 22:23, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

Papen vs von Papen

The article consistently refers to him as Papen, not von Papen, do sources support that? We don't do it when talking about people like Werner von Braun, Max von Sydow, Lars von Trier. I thought dropping the von or van (usually) only happened to mayor historic figures, like (Paul von) Hindenburg, (Otto von) Bismarck, (Ludwig van) Beethoven, and von Papen doesn't seem to fit that category, but I could be wrong... Prevalence 19:50, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

The drop shouldn't even happen to von Bismarck or von Hindenburg, as it's part of their familynames, tho popular opinion/knowledge did it to them. Norschweden (talk) 13:41, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

It should be dropped for all of them per common usage. Str1977 ^(talk) 15:18, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Schleicher's murder during the Night of the Long Knives

You've got to be kidding me that Kurt Schleicher's murder by the Nazis during the Night of the Long Knives isn't noted in this article, either in the introductory section or the section on the Night of the Long Knives. 173.88.246.138 (talk) 21:40, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

There is no requirement to mention this in this article as Papen was not an instigator of this massacre. Rather, his closest link to the massacre was that two of his associates were murdered and his own arrest. Str1977 ^(talk) 15:26, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Hitler's demand to be chancellor

Why is Hitler's demand to be chancellor following the July 1932 Reichstag elections not mentioned in this article? 173.88.246.138 (talk) 21:55, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

The article reads: "Two days later, Schleicher and Papen offered the position of vice-chancellor to Hitler, who rejected it." So it was included, albeit not as forcefully as you would like it. Str1977 ^(talk) 17:00, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Mourning

Why von Papen is wearing a black armband in June 1932 and July 1934 (as we can see in the article's photo)? 213.22.195.39 (talk) 00:20, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Illegitimate American son

I cannot find any citations to back up the claim of him having an affair with an American woman or having an illegitimate son with her, as written in this article. I've added a citation needed tag to the relevant section but it would be nice to know where this claim comes from considering 2 individuals are mentioned by name without citation. parqs (talk) 20:05, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

Franz von Papen was a reactionary.

I added the term reactionary in the lead, because Franz von Papen sought to re-establish the Hohenzollern monarchy, believed the nobility and rich were superior to the common people, and frequently lied and pushed the envelope with the law in pursuit of power (i.e. violating diplomatic immunity, broke party discipline in the Centre Party, schemed to bring Hitler to power and though he could "contain" Hitler, and then worked as a diplomat for Hitler even after Hitler had killed some of his associates). Papen's actions are emblematic of the negative aspects of Prussianism--primarily militarism and hostility to democracy.JohnAdams1800 (talk) 00:25, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

"though he could "contain" Hitler" That would be "thought" instead of "though". And von Papen clearly overstimated both his own abilities and his political support. Dimadick (talk) 17:08, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

I'm going to add a section analyzing Papen's legacy and early life over the next few days.

Franz von Papen is often ignored compared to Hitler and his direct enablers (in the Nazi party), despite the fact it was Hitler's alliance with influential right-wing Germans (i.e. Papen, Alfred Hugenberg, etc.) that was necessary to appoint Hitler chancellor. I'm going to analyze Franz von Papen directly from the book: 1. Satan in Top Hat: The Biography of Franz von Papen Kindle Edition JohnAdams1800 (talk) 23:36, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

References

Persona non grata

Under the heading 'Military attaché...', the fifth paragraph states: "... on 28 December 1915, Captain von Papen was declared persona non grata ...", But the caption to a nearby image reads: "Papen in New York City on 22 December 1915, after being declared persona non grata by the U.S. government ..." They can't both be right! 203.23.239.198 (talk) 06:01, 26 July 2024 (UTC)