Talk:List of irregularly spelled English names

Newquay

The pronunciation of "Newquay" is not really counter-intuitive, given that it is pronounced identically to "new quay". Granted, the pronunciation of the common noun "quay" is counter-intuitive, so maybe that's why "Newquay" gets on this list. — 217.46.147.13 (talk) 14:54, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Quay == Key is standard English (en_gb). I have tried to think of a counter example but can't. Another example: Torquay -> Taw Key. I know of a Canadian Norquay -> Nor Kway.

I would say that quay == key is standard en_gb. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gerdesj (talk • contribs) 01:20, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Some possibilities

Beaconsfield, Buckinghamshire, UK - pronounced Bekkonsfield. Jdudmesh (talk) 20:37, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

La Jolla, California and Van Nuys, California —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.112.31.130 (talk) 19:01, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I can't write in phoenetic!

Somerset - English county - minor detail but it's Summer Set in pronunciation Hatch Beauchamp - a village in South Somerset, England : Hatch Beech-um Worchestershire - English county: Woosta-Sher (the woo as in wood) Worchester - city in Worcestershire (NB - Worcester, Worcestershire - no "ch" in either case) Captain Pedant (talk) 08:04, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Gerdesj (talk) 01:48, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Milngavie in Glasgow? (Mill-guy)85.158.139.100 (talk) 14:23, 25 February 2010 (UTC) Lance Tyrell

The US list is missing "Skaneateles, New York", which is pronounced "skinny atlas." 209.117.47.253 (talk) 11:08, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Garboldisham, Norfolk is pronounced "GARbulshum" by the locals Captain Pedant (talk) 08:04, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

What about Lake Orion, MI? You'd think it'd be pronounced correctly like the constellation (or-AYE-un), but locals pronounce it OR-ee-on. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.179.233.246 (talk) 09:14, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

How about Wimbledon, which is not pronounced Wim - blə - don but Wim - bul - don? Vburmester (talk) 10:12, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

But like thimble, rumble, spindle, fondle, handle, etc... -- Dr Greg  talk  20:12, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but it is still counterintuitive because it does not adhere to the rules of pronunciation Vburmester (talk) 21:56, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Alas, no-one has bothered to answer that. The rule is not well taught, but there, it is that if you have in this order: n/m, a consonant, le then it is generally /əl/ in the same was as double t. Also bear in mind these rules are after the event not prescribed by someone, the language evolved itself to sound nice/fierce or whatever else. Adam37 (talk) 11:23, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Gaelic and Irish

No offense, but don't most place names derived from Gaelic (Irish or Scottish) defy the normal "rules" of English pronunciation? That potentially makes for a very long list. Wouldn't it make more sense to mention a few and beyond that exclude Gaelic/Irish derived names? Akerbeltz (talk) 23:18, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

It depends on how anglicized the spellings are, I think. I'd say "Donegal" and "Lewis" and "Mayo" and "Glasgow" have intuitive enough pronunciations, but "Dún Laoghaire" and "Beinn Bhreagh" probably don't. On the other hand, this is a "List of names in English with counterintuitive pronunciations", and people might not consider Dún Laoghaire and Beinn Bhreagh to be names in English. +Angr 10:38, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

• English is a mongrel language with global scope. Even if the list were confined to placenames in England, we'd still be dealing with names that have their roots in other languages like Danish, Cornish &c. Choosing between these is a matter of personal opinion and so violates our core principles of WP:NPOV and WP:NOR. Colonel Warden (talk) 07:11, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Redirect

This page has been linked to from Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language. If the move to Wiktionary goes ahead, please redirect this page to the new page in Wiktionary. -- Wavelength (talk) 14:40, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

"Copy to wiktionary" tag

The transwiki option was rejected in the most recent AfD, but the {{copy to wiktionary}} warning tag remains at the top of the page. Is it still valid? --Old Moonraker (talk) 13:49, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Dialect vs local pronunciation

I'm aware that the wikipedia policy is to use very broad transcription that might be read in any dialect, however I do not think that policy is appropriate here for place names. It seems to me that the base logic of this article is to show local pronunciations. Therefore, a transcription which is somewhat closer to its actual pronunciation by locals (including dialectical variation) would make much more sense. 60.240.207.146 (talk) 23:03, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, mostly what people are interested in is how they should pronounce a name, which means the broad transcription. The point is not to indicate that the local pronunciation is counterintuitive, say because they speak a bizarre dialect, but that the pronunciation is counterintuitive period, whoever says it. It might also be hard to document a lot of these. But sure, a second transcription with local pronunciation might be nice; though given how unstable this article tends to be, that effort might be better expended on the individual articles, which an interested reader can always consult. — kwami (talk) 23:17, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

My point is that a broad transcription might not be rendered as counter-intuitive where the counter-intuitiveness of the pronunciation is primarily (or in large part) affected by local factors. Eg, the pronunciation of Melbourne in Australian English is regular according to the rules of Australian English, but rather irregular by the rules of American English. So here, a broad transcription does not render the relevant differences that give rise to 'counter-intuitive'. Although, I acknowledge that Melbourne is not in the same class as Worcestershire. 60.240.207.146 (talk)

Places in Maine

I know there has to be a lot of places from Maine belonging on this page, I'm just not sure how to go about writing the pronunciation. for example,one of the biggest cities- Bangor is bang-gore, not bang-er. There are countless Native American names which could go on this page. the difference between writing and pronunciation here has resulted in many nightmares for tourists looking for directions. just informing whoever has the resources that there are many towns and rivers etc in Maine that can be added to this list.

I'll be the first to say I didn't do well in english, so i'm not sure if the following are mispronunciations due to how it's written or tourists just not reading it right, but i've heard the following mispronounced quite a bit, followed by proper pronunciation: sebago is seh-bay-go, saco is Sock-o, Piscataquis is piss-cat-eh-kwah, yarmouth is yar-myth, to name a few

Chillicothe and Windsor

Chillicothe could be added. IPA is not my speciality. Varlaam (talk) 08:19, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Windsor also belongs.

I heard a newsreader on the radio recently say "Wind-sore".

And Dalhousie is pronounced differently in Nova Scotia and Ontario.

Varlaam (talk) 17:12, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Ranulph

Ranulph, traditionally pronounced "ralf" as in Ranulph Fiennes.

151.170.240.10 (talk) 10:05, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Oxford Dictionary of Pronunciation for Current English shows that "Ranulph" has the obvious pronunciation of English pronunciation: /ˈ/ (or possibly English pronunciation: /ˈ/), whereas Ralph Fiennes says /ˈreɪf/—rafe. Is there a reference anywhere?--Old Moonraker (talk) 11:37, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Note that Ranulph Fiennes is a different person from the English actor. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 00:24, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, I should have linked the frostbitten explorer as well for clarity—thanks. Removing bold. --Old Moonraker (talk) 05:09, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

more

places to add:

Thame

Theydon Bois --94.14.106.8 (talk) 14:24, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Allesley, Coventry (awsly), Bedworth (bedurth) Lavateraguy (talk) 12:24, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

I think bedurth has proven too local and older-folk a pronunciation. Whether that sort of narrow area where it is used qualifies please discuss at the bottom of the page. Adam37 (talk) 11:02, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Oxford Colleges

If we're going to include the colleges of Oxford University why not all of the strange pronunciations? Hertford is Hartford, Brasenose is Braise-Nose. Keble is Keeble. Linacre rhymes with Spinnaker. Pembroke is Pembrook with first syllable stress. Wadham is Wad-um. Somerville is Summerville. I'd add it myself but I don't know IPA. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CptBuck (talk • contribs) 17:23, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Indented line

Because Brasenose is pronounced exactly as its spelt, and Somerville, Wadham and Keble are hardly "counterintuitive" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.233.22.147 (talk) 20:10, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

While this convo is long-dead mostly for good reason, a little note on the prefix: Wad/Wall would not go awry at the start. They we can get rid of Wallasey but understanding it like Wallington. Also on a note arguably on the suffix Broke (eg Bolingbroke, Pembroke and I think there are a few more). Adam37 (talk) 10:59, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

'English words with uncommon properties' deleted

The page English words with uncommon properties was deleted per Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/English words with uncommon properties. Deletion review is currently under way at Wikipedia:Deletion review#English words with uncommon properties, but pending that discussion the article has no content. I have therefore removed the hatnote from this article redirecting users to that one. Cnilep (talk) 01:09, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

non-English surnames

As it is now, it seems that the list includes names that only happen to be attached to people who live in English-speaking countries. I would suggest that it would be more logical for the list to only include names that are of some longstanding provenance within the Anglophone domain. This would make for a much shorter list, but a more navigable and, I venture, more interesting one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.69.64.60 (talk) 03:35, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

And to clarify, I'm referring to names such as Favre, Schiavo, etc. These names' pronunciation may be counterintuitive but this isn't of much relevance to English language or history as such. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.69.64.60 (talk) 03:41, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Support-I'm going to start weeding--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 17

14, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Disastrous use of bot

Hi Deflective. I am about to reverse your recent edit to this page. Have you not checked through the article to see what chaos your bot has created? Your revisions to the English section may or may not be fine (I'm not sufficiently conversant with IPA to be able to judge) but the American section has been reduced to gibberish. SiGarb | (Talk) 20:36, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

I don't see anything wrong. Can you give an example? — kwami (talk) 20:43, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Oh, I see it. It changes each time I look at it. Yes, the template is not supported on this page. Too many transclusions. — kwami (talk) 20:46, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Yep. It's always worth checking over a page after you edit it! SiGarb | (Talk) 21:02, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

(PS Interestingly, I noticed that it looked perfect in the revert edit two-window view!) SiGarb | (Talk) 21:04, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Opening a can of worms!

I've removed the following "explanation" from the intro, because it is far more complicated than this suggests and this is probably not the place to start opening this can of worms, or at least not without citing plenty of reliable references etc.

" Sometimes it is because the name has been Anglicized from a foreign language and a non speaker of that language does not recognise the origins ( eg Thibodeau) . Or because the original place name is Roman in origin and the current pronunciation may possibly represent the original Latin pronunciation ( eg Bicester) "

Many of the "English" examples given here are of Scottish place names/personal names that are, quite reasonably, pronounced as they are in Scottish Gaelic, Scots or even Scottish English. Likewise those in Northern Ireland and Ireland which are derived from (and pronounced as in) Irish Gaelic. They should, logically, be removed from this list, because if these are included, why not include every non-Anglicised Welsh placename? Then there's the issue of England's many local accents and dialects; should place names be transcribed as local speakers would pronounce them, not as, say, a 1950s BBC news-reader might have done? Is "Dudley" for instance, "Dood-luuy" or "Dadly"? Is "Newcastle" (upon Tyne) pronounced "Ny'cassel" or "Newcaarsle"?

And of course the situation in the USA is even more complex! SiGarb | (Talk) 21:35, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Non-rhotic "-shire" pronunication.

As most of the "shires" on the list are English, and as EngE is almost entirely non-rhotic, the following from the article seems at best incomplete, if not entirely misleading: "-shire – /-ʃər, -ʃɪər/; (-shər, -shēr)". My best guesses would be "/-ʃə/", "/-ʃɪə/", "/-ʃaɪə/", depending on whom you're talking to... and about where. 84.203.32.213 (talk) 14:04, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:IPA for English, where it says "In many dialects, /r/ occurs only before a vowel; if you speak such a dialect, simply ignore /r/ in the pronunciation guides where you would not pronounce it, as in cart /ˈkɑrt/.". Or Help:IPA conventions for English where it says "Wikipedia's WP:IPA for English key, on the other hand, is intended to cover RP, General American, Australian, and other national standards. As such, Wikipedia transcribes /r/ where it is found in rhotic dialects, but also the vowel distinctions found in non-rhotic dialects, without distinct UK and US transcriptions. Specific dialects may also be transcribed—local pronunciations of place names are often useful, for example—but they are normally written in addition to a more universal pronunciation.". -- Dr Greg  talk  19:02, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

That's a tad on the implicit side for my liking, since the entire point of the article is (hyper)localised pronunciations, but I suppose it does technically cover the matter, especially as there's a link to the IPA metadoc in the lede. So, should "/-ʃaɪər/" appear as a third (i.e., fifth and sixth...) possibility, to cover what a non-rhot would be likely to say for the instances where the local pronunciation is rhotic and non-reduced? 84.203.32.213 (talk) 00:36, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Since that isn't the counter-intuitive part of the name, I'd say no. — kwami (talk) 02:07, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

That seems to be begging the question of "whose intuition"! What about adding in a "baseline" or "expected" pronunciation explicitly in those terms, for contrast, then? (Ideally for all the items in that section, for symmetry.) 84.203.35.37 (talk) 17:21, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

My own view on this, which may not be the official Wikipedia line, is that although the "Queen's English" (RP) is non-rhotic, there are a number of rhotic regional accents in the UK, so in fact -ʃə, -ʃər, -ʃɪə and -ʃɪər are all heard within the UK (the first two more likely than the last two), so none of them sound wrong to a British ear. Whereas, in my opinion, -ʃaɪə and -ʃaɪər are hardly ever heard coming from a British mouth (at the end of a county name) and sound wrong to a British ear (except, perversely, in the standalone word "shire" which is always pronounced as ʃaɪə(r)). -- Dr Greg  talk  18:26, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

I assume you're thinking largely of English English accents here, as for example Scottish English, as well as being rhotic, reduces this suffix much less. And of course, there are a number of Scottish "-shire"s. Listening to some examples over at forvo.com, there seems to be some variation in the range /-ʃɪər/ to /-ʃaɪər/. (Though I'm not sure I'd 100% trust either my ear or my IPA.) 84.203.36.1 (talk) 16:24, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

New Orleans

I know most Americans are used to pronouncing the "s" in Orleans, but the proper french pronunciation is "or-lay-on". If your have Versailles in this list, shouldn't you also have New Orleans (and other places like Orleans, Indiana? --rogerd (talk) 18:26, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Evesham

Can someone add Evesham/GB please? I do not know how to pronounce it. --93.211.169.78 (talk) 13:35, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Since it includes a phoneme with two common pronunciations that, alas, does not make it counterintuitive. It is perhaps, probable given Faversham and other shams you see on a map (but not of course Masham!), eev-sh'm. Adam37 (talk) 09:40, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Two Cambridges (UK)

Although it's widely thought (citation?) that Cambridge (Gloucestershire) is pronounced /ˈkæmbrɪdʒ/, the locals pronounce it /ˈkeɪmbrɪdʒ/ (like the one in Cambridgeshire) --- my brother moved there over a year ago and says he's asked around and that no-one there can remember it ever being called /ˈkæmbrɪdʒ/. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.33.159.2 (talk) 14:04, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

does this count?

Near where I grew up there is a village called Hartingfordbury. The pronunciation of this is urt-brie, which is urt as in hurt and brie as in the cheese. This seems counter-intuitive to me, but I'm not sure if it counts for inclusion in the list and I don't know anything about IPA; except the beer. Cheers Cottonshirtτ 05:00, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Definitely nothing odd, in my opinion. While conflicting with the local UK exception of saying Hert like Hart (Hertsmere and Hertford), this is of course standard pronunciation in its own right, though not being far from Hertford may cause some local mistakes... Nonetheless brie is exactly what is standard for bury (see top of the article). Anyone with often a family link to a manor (or simply taught to say their words more as they are spelt) may still say hertingf'udb'uh'ree in a spelt-out way, as is optional, which is also more common among women.Adam37 (talk) 09:35, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Various - 21 June 2013 (as listed in article for discussion)

Ashtead

As can be seen in the article and its main history sources, Ashstead was the historic spelling. This lends most local people to say it that way still but I cannot find a citation. Is this accepted, or are we reduced to thinking everyone says it like an Ash-related Ted (whoever Ted is?)... Adam37 (talk) 10:18, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

You're probably right, but I just couldn't find any mention of an unusual pronunciation online. Afasmit (talk) 12:26, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Bicester

While /stər/ for -cester is "regular", the /ɪ/ sound still comes as a surprise to most.

This is pure debate, and unreferenced but we won't rely on that fact as fluidity applies, and local knowledge, please discuss. Slight surprise is irrelevant if follows other rules, see Schenectady.

Out of courtesy to other editors, being a user who trusts reasonable editors, which given the other edits of the article, so far everyone has been totally, thanks, I've left this one in. Certain other editors on here would have removed it.

My qualm is that based on rules of common exceptions, many of which you can see in the poem The Chaos for example, and in obviously country-consistent places such as Schenectady, which may look German but is not so is 'ske...', I don't think really this counts.

If however you can show other words starting with bi- (not scientific words) and sounding like "by" then this might be ok, particularly plae names. I cannot think of another bici or bice place so cannot support the current inclusion (as if we are really to assume people would jump to the Greek or Latin pronunciation of British place names (even with roman origins) then that would be wrong...Adam37 (talk) 10:18, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

P.S. I may have just undermined my argument on that one what do you think? Adam37 (talk) 10:18, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

A good benchmark for adding words to this list has been that a name (online) is frequently followed by "pronounced xxx! Can you believe it?". Perhaps there could be other standards, but it describes "counterintuitive" pretty well. At any rate, Bicester is generally followed by "huh?". I bet most people see "Bicester" and think of "vices", "nicest", "biceps" or even "bice" if they know that word. "Bister" may not come to mind after having even considered "chicest" (/ʃiːkəst/) ;-) Afasmit (talk) 12:26, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps but given cester is standard (istn't it!!) I am sure if the word was Biceminster or Bicing you would take a different view and call that intuitive, perhaps warped in logic on that one.Adam37 (talk) 11:12, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Edenham

In Lincolnshire. I agree with the later comment in the article. The common rule for any word beginning Eden, in my experienced view is that is going to be pronounced "Eeden", particularly with places.Adam37 (talk) 10:18, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm with you here. I wouldn't guess /ˈɛdnəm/}, even knowing about -ham. Hope it wasn't my comment. Afasmit (talk) 12:26, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Kingston Bagpuize

Really is this that obvious or consistent with exceptions? If it were Bagpuze then definitely. My contention is it should follow the pattern of Huish Episcopi or Ruishton - please comment.Adam37 (talk) 10:18, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

I commented "Not sure how this is counterintuitive: "ui" usually is pronounced /uː/ (juice, nuisance, suit) and the /j/ is standard after /p/ (e.g. in the otherwise hilariously pronounced puisne)." If /pjuːz/ is not one's first guess (it happened to be mine) than it probably would be the second. We're looking for fourth guesses here. The spelling may be weird, but we're not listing weird spellings. Afasmit (talk) 12:26, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Oswaldtwistle

This has been a bone of contention for three years. During that time it has largely stayed put. Normally the ending is naturally like whistle, granted. In my understanding I've only ever heard it as properly pronounced by Lancastrians without the wəl sound in the middle.Adam37 (talk) 10:18, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

I've never heard anyone pronounce it, but when you work for the BBC you apparently have to pronounce it ozzul-twizzle, which they somehow call "incomparable" [1]. Afasmit (talk) 12:26, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

South Elmsall

This has been removed. However it seems someone failed to notice its reason for inclusion in the first place. It is due to the second syllable, Elm being pronounced "Em" - can we agree this is counterintuitive? Adam37 (talk) 10:18, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps people thought of the often silent l in words containing -alm, but I don't think it happens after an /ɛ/. Odd enough to include, I'd say. Afasmit (talk) 12:26, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Tottenham

This is probably my favorite polemic. I'm tempted to sit tight and clam up. Whilst one can just about find and cite a recorded source of a person from the London or Home Counties saying straight, without pretense of grandeur, Tot-te-nam, it is exactly like Puttenham, Hertfordshire, Puttenham, Surrey and at least 6 others so I don't think it should be included, even as a <>. Adam37 (talk) 10:18, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. The advantage of keeping a <> is that the next editor who wants to add Tottenham sees that it has a reason not to be there. Afasmit (talk) 12:26, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

The Whitacres

This is my addition. Afasmit has hidden it, relegated it to <>. In my view it ought to be pronounced in the same way as Longacre. Perhaps there are other examples?Adam37 (talk) 10:18, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Not to be a wiseacre, which apparently intuits, I mentioned "massacre" and the surnames "Whitacre" and "Whitaker" as showing the same pattern. We've not included the surnames either. There are probably too many names where the stress is not where you at first expect it to list here. Afasmit (talk) 12:26, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

It is not a matter of stress, but one of a different IPA sound completely.Adam37 (talk) 13:07, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree that /ˈwaɪtˌeɪkər/ comes to mind before /ˈwɪtɵkər/, but schwa-ification is commonplace and there are so many parallels to the /aɪ/ -> /ɪ/ change in common English three-syllable words (e.g. misery despite miser; vicarage despite vicar; etc.) that the second guess seems relatively intuitive. Afasmit (talk) 20:29, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Yeavering

Given the rare verb heavering and perhaps cleavering I am a bit surprised this one has dubious annotated in <>. Really it is a place that would logically be spelled Yevering given the verbs we know of rather than the nouns but some officious middle English scribe seems to have added an a. I don't see why given the enormous common mistakes the -ing as a tribal place name ending causes they could not have used something a little more logical in spelling.Adam37 (talk) 10:18, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

This one isn't hidden, and given words like heaven and leaven the "borderline" note seems accurate. Again, the oddness of the spelling doesn't matter; after /jiːvərɪŋ/, you try /jeɪvərɪŋ/ or /jɛvərɪŋ/, each standard pronunciations of "ea". And those are rare verbs indeed: onelook.com doesn't even list them. Afasmit (talk) 12:26, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Someone added a note with Reading saying "Like Yeavering below.", but Reading is here entirely for the extreme familiarity of the word reading. Afasmit (talk) 20:29, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Kelowna, British Columbia

Far be it from me to say anything, other than someone hates noting the historic pronunciation /kəˈlaʊnə/ assuming that was added in good faith.Adam37 (talk) 10:18, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Not my fight. Either way seems hardly counterintuitive to me. If you guess /oʊ/ like blown than /aʊ/ like clown would be your second guess, so it shouldn't even be here. Now Osoyoos to the south, that belongs;-) Afasmit (talk) 12:26, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Exotic anthroponyms e.g. Chynna

Look at the category below, give me statistics on how common a name like Chynna Phillips is and then decide whether we will add all 1000 or so names with less than 0.1% of the English and US populations having them, or whether this is to be excluded? Adam37 (talk) 10:18, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

This is no place to start describing exotic celebrities like notoriously difficult to pronounce from spelling Israeli/Chinese ones just as people struggle with their names.Adam37 (talk) 10:18, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't know. She's married into the Baldwins; instant publicity right there. Many of the surnames listed are rare and not carried by celebrities at all; but why would that be a requirement? We're limited to English-born (or English-mangled) names here. Chinese doesn't come in the picture, even if her name sounds like China. Afasmit (talk) 12:26, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Exactly I meant not a placed to list an exotically-named anybody. If someone's name is imported from a foreign language then great but this category will become totally unwieldy.Adam37 (talk) 13:13, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

I think names like Antawn, Chynna, MaliVai, Matraca , Michellie, Picabo and Wynonna makes the list of given names interesting. In the past common names like John have been added and deleted (both by other editors than me), the latter probably because of too high familiarity to be counterintuitive to anyone anymore. Right now "Freda" (like alameda, credal, Fredonia, predate) and the "Th" names Anthony, Theresa, Thomas from Ancient Greek (where θ was /tʰ/ rather than /θ/, which approximate pronunciation is adopted in all languages but perhaps modern Greek;-) seem a bit underwhelming in the line-up. Afasmit (talk) 20:29, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

I like your points, I really do. I wonder on this one though if you would accept that is as we were brought up with them. We probably even studied greek or latin, or at the very least know a lot of those sort of names. This however no longer holds true for much of the English speaking world. Many names are pure imports, if they are common hybrids, or major departures from their original setting purely as they have gained popularity in an English speaking country then we can have imports too. It is nice that people have such a variety of names.Adam37 (talk) 11:09, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

I would merely add it is appropriate that in such a list we draw the line at the most common, such as approaching 0.1% of any English main language country population and another one having the name, we will then have exciting sections on more obscure mostly English speaking areas, such as much of the Caribbean, and perhaps the most common oddities from Nigeria, Ghana, Kenya where it can be shown these are also "common" on that measure in another set of countries. Regional names should have their own setting and rules, that is obvious for anyone who studies languages.Adam37 (talk) 11:16, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

So...

What's exactly happened here? Not making sense of the diffs and the summaries are useless. — Lfdder (talk) 11:49, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Hi Lfdder, the reason, in looking through the history section, you may be confused was it was for much of that suffering from Category:Pages where template include size is exceeded. The purpose of using the standard IPAc-en template has been neatening this article which resulted in its content (which I pre-prepared ready for upload with the single, combined and requested neatened IPA format) going briefly wrong. This is now fully up and running, with US and UK and Ireland pages split off to enable the page to work property.

This is used instead of two conflicting phonetic alphabets, one of which is in certain instances deprecated by all other phonetic alphabets, i.e. Longman's dictionary.

If this page grows longer much more then we may have to consider splitting off the less densely inhabited countries with fewer counterintuitive place names, or indeed simply carry on using Template:IPA-en with a final pipe (|) towards the bottom of the article to avoid the same technical problem. -Adam37 (talk) 13:56, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining. — Lfdder (talk) 22:32, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Schenectady

I fail to see how, as is stated in the lead, the pronunciation of Schenectady (/skəˈnɛktədi/) is not counterintuitive. I've never been able to look at that word without my brain reading it as /ˈʃɛ.nɪkˌteɪdiː/.  — TORTOISEWRATH 22:27, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Well whoever wrote it was definitely American and probably that side of the country, or they wouldn't be willing to pick such a regional example. My understanding of Americans is that they overwhelmingly say "Skej/dyu(h)l" for Schedule (which is by the way pretty much the norm in the rest of the English speaking word now: it sounds more robust in high-end business circles). However British England debates/reality aside: as Afasmit writes above, perhaps heavy-handedly at times, but quite rightly, where it is a matter of unforeseen stress, unless this strongly conflicts with known comparators (eg Berlin U.S.-style vs German) then it should not appear in one of these lists. Now of course the debate on this one perhaps then centres around whether Schenectady looks German or American Indian/US English - in my view as someone consider such very upstate places in context, or indeed, looking even more US-English examples that sound similar like Schema/Scheme most people would realise the latter, despite words like Schaffer/Schneider being well-known. Adam37 (talk) 08:29, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Also, when you hear the correct pronunciation, you can see how it the spelling fits, even if you wouldn't have guessed it correctly. A counter-intuitive pronunciation is one that doesn't fit the spelling, like Tucson. — kwami (talk) 17:25, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Not really counterintuitive

I was going to remove a couple of the Canadian examples, since they seem to be conflicting with the introduction. But there were to many to just be bold uninvitedly, so I'll put 'em up here.

With the following I think the pronunciation is understandable if you get it, even if not obvious:

• Agassiz – /ˈæɡəsi/ - a silent last "s" or "z" appears quite often
• Job's Cove, Newfoundland and Labrador – /ˈdʒoʊbz/ (after biblical Job) - unless the place is pronounced without "cove", I fail to see anything here
• Kelowna, British Columbia – /kəˈloʊnə/
• Keremeos, British Columbia – /ˌkɛrɨˈmiː.əs/
• L'Ardoise, Nova Scotia – /ˈlɔərdweɪz/ - somewhat mutated French but still understandable
• Osoyoos, British Columbia – /ɒˈsuːjuːs/ or /ɒˈsuːjəs/ and (originally) /ˈsuːjuːs/ - again, every letter is easily accounted for
• Pouce Coupe, British Columbia - /ˈpuːskuːpiː/ - not really sure about this one, the ending pronounciation in "i" is somewhat counterintuitive, but again easily recognizable franglais.
• Quebec – /kəˈbɛk/ or /kwɨˈbɛk/ - both pronunciations are easily derivable from the spelling. Maybe as with the next example, somebody wanted to point out the differences in pronouncing "Qu", but since there are multiple ways to do it, and both are regularily used, we cannot rule them all out.
• Quesnel, British Columbia – /kwɨˈnɛl/
• Quidi Vidi, Newfoundland – /ˈkɪdi.vɪdi/
• Saanich Peninsula and related place names in British Columbia – /ˈsænɨtʃ/ - So what would be the "non-counterintuitive" pronunciation?
• Sechelt, British Columbia – /ˈsiːʃɛlt/
• Summerland, British Columbia – /ˈsʌmərlænd/ (not /ˈsʌmərlənd/) - really marginal difference, you can see how it comes. May stay according to the "better known differently pronounced namesake", if it exists, but cannot stand on its own IMO

Even if stated as absolutes, of course these are only my takes, but I think such a list should go for the more extreme ones, lest it be filled with basically any place name. --Ulkomaalainen (talk) 13:21, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for checking in first. We have had lots of cleanups, but, as hundreds of editors have contributed and had their own idea of counterintuitiveness, these pages have been hard to maintain and I don’t think anyone is trying to keep them consistent anymore. By now, most of the United States and Australian names do not appear counterintuitive to me at all. We suggested to have “you’d not guess this at your second try” as a rule, but there will always be people who guess right the second time;-) Mangled or incomplete Anglicisations are unpredictable and therefore counterintuitive in above sense in my eyes, and Canada has a fair share of those. Here are my votes:

• Agassiz. Probable keep. Silent S is common, silent Z not. The shift of the stress from the third to the first syllable makes it pretty far from the original, while most people unfamiliar with the geologist wouldn’t guess a Swiss-French origin down in British Colombia.
• Job’s Cove. Probably agreed. The pronunciation of the guy Job himself is odd, but in this case people who’ve heard of him would guess the right pronunciation at worst the second time.
• Kelowna and Keremeos: Agreed.
• L’Ardoise. Keep for irregular mutilation. How hard is it to approximate the French with /lɑrdwɑz/? A monolingual person may guess /lɑrdoiz/, but /ˈlɔrdweɪz/?
• Osoyoos. Keep. Even ignoring the sometimes silent first or schwaed third syllables, I challenge you to find someone to pronounce this right the first and second time around. The second syllable will be/soː/ and then /sɔj/, after which they will start laboring on the other syllables;-)
• Pouce Coupe. Keep, even if just for levity's sake. The Anglicisation from Pouce Coupé (/pus kuˈpe/) actually makes some sense, but with the accent lost, people will always go for /ˈpuːs kuːp/
• Quebec. Agreed.
• Quesnel. Probable keep, as this one is only halfway Anglicized. Either do /kəˈnɛl/ or /ˈkwɛsnəl/. Perhaps a century from now.
• Quidi Vidi. Probably keep “kiddy viddy”. The /ɪ/ versus /iː/ most counters my intuit. Some websites even suggest “Kitty vitty”, which would be delicious if only true. It also has a Latin feel to it (veni, vidi, vici), suggesting /kw/, but it apparently comes from the Portuguese “porto qui dividi”, where "qui" is indeed /ki/.
• Saanich Peninsula. Agreed.
• Sechelt. Weak keep. Wouldn’t be my first or second guess (/ˈsɛtʃəlt/ and then /səˈʃɛl/ assuming French). Apparently it is named after the /ˈʃiːʃɛlt/ people, and if they had kept that pronunciation it would have been a shoe-in. Why did they spell it this way?
• Summerland. Agreed. Good example of a bad entry. Afasmit (talk) 20:25, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Niamh, Irene

I added Niamh to the general given name list. It might belong in the Common Irish/Welsh list, so if someone wants to move it, that's cool (it belongs with Siobhan anyway, right?)

I'd like to see Irene (i.e. Irenë) added as well, but I don't have a "definitive" IPA for that one, and the name's entry isn't all that helpful. Perhaps "Irenë" (there's certainly precedent) is good enough? Eastcheap (talk) 04:52, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Berenstain vs Berenstein

Is it really the "Berenstain Bears", and not "Berenstein Bears", like a lot of people believe? Seems like this is a pretty common mistake.

There is a (probably tongue in cheek) Blog post here that attributes this to a time warp -- most people would swear it is the latter spelling, even in the face of proof.

http://woodbetweenworlds.blogspot.ca/2012/08/the-berenstein-bears-we-are-living-in.html

The above Blog post has some interesting comments by the son of Jan and Stan Berenstain (author of the "Berenstain Bears" collection.) You can find a surprising number of other references on the web to this odd phenomenon. A lot of people SWEAR it is Berenstein (with an "ein" rather than "ain"). While investigating this phenomenon, I ended up here on this amazing page, and I think it might be interesting to include this. 24.129.47.121 (talk) 13:44, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

English? Or not?

Is this article supposed to be about English or longtime Anglicized names with counterintuitive pronunciations, or any name borne by an English-speaking person in a largely English-speaking country whose name happens to have an unexpected pronunciation for another English-speaking person?

Since the latter opens up a huge can of worms -- the US is a nation of immigrants, a great many of whom have names which strictly speaking have counterintuitive pronunciations by the normal rules of English orthography, only many are so familiar they don't seem that way -- and because other examples of the umlaut are not included (such as Boehner), I'm being bold and cutting Groening from the surname section. It's a German surname whose pronunciation is perfectly intuitive to a German-speaker. 192.35.35.34 (talk) 22:21, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

There are indeed many names that are not Anglo-Saxon. Especially names of ultimately French, Gaelic, Spanish or Native American languages show up a lot. The list will become small when you'd exclude all those. A decent rule would be to exclude those that are regularly Anglicized versions or are approaches of the original pronunciation. The German long vowel oe or ö (/ø/) doesn't exist in English and is prone to imaginative pronunciating, but I would be surprised if Germans find /eɪ/ intuitive, in the same way French people would find it odd to hear /dəpardjeɪ/ for Depardieu. The regular Anglicized pronunciation is /oː/, as in Boeing, Koenig, Poehler, Roeper and Schrödinger, or, for a pronunciation estimate, /ɜ/ as in Goethe. I think Boehner was in the list for a long time as well, and I would keep it. Boehner and Groening's families probably decided to avoid "boner" and "groaning", but I don't think that makes the chosen pronunciation intuitive. Afasmit (talk) 22:51, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

"Celeb" given name

Is "Celeb" a misprint of "Caleb", or is it really a common given name? It's invisible under the results for celebrity in attempting a web search for usages.

Willhsmit (talk) 04:07, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Surname Jervis

According to the list of surnames in this article, this name is pronounced /ˈdʒɑːvɪs/. However, I know a number of people in the UK who have the name, several of them members of my family, and all of them pronounce it /ˈdʒɜːvɪs/ (rhyming with "service"). All the people I know with the name have a connection with the town of Stafford. Is there anyone out there who has this surname, spelt with an e, who pronounces it with the a sound? I have never met one. LynwoodF (talk) 22:41, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

Nobody has come back to me on this, and so I shall remove the entry, because what it says just isn't true. LynwoodF (talk) 21:19, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Maori place names in New Zealand

Many of the place names in New Zealand are not in English, but Maori. Given that their pronunciations are not counterintuitive in Maori, and that this page is for English names only, I have removed these entries. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jimworm (talk • contribs) 10:59, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

I would argue that the ones which share spelling with well known English words and/or place names, such as Omaha, New Zealand (/ˌoʊˈmɑːhɑː/), should probably stay. So should Kumara, New Zealand (/kʊˈmɑːrə/), which is pronounced in a different way to the far more commonly heard name of the vegetable kumara (/ˈkʊmərə/, also Maori). A lot of New Zealanders get these particular place names wrong for exactly those reasons. Also, since fully 1/3 of the Australian place names are of Aboriginal origin (Wagga Wagga, Goondiwindi, Tallangatta, Mudgeeraba, Wangi Wangi, Woonona...) and one of them is Maori (Manuka), a considerable number of the Canadian and American ones (the latter on a separate page) are of First Nation origin (Osoyoos, Tsawwassen, Etobicoke, Chewelah, Acequia, Connecticut, Skagit, Pawtucket, Neodesha...), and others on the list are the normal pronunciation in their originating languages (e.g., Quebec is pronounced no differently in English to Occitan, and Pago Pago is not counterintuitive in Samoan), why should Maori be singled out in this way? Unless I hear a logical reason why this rule should apply to one and not the others, I'll add these placenames back. Grutness...wha?

Many Maori place names begin with or contain the combination "wh," which in some cases is pronounced as in English which, when, where, etc., but in others pronounced like English "f." They should be included—at least those names where the "f" sound occurs. 69.42.17.116 (talk) 01:27, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

Finding a pronunciation counterintuitive is not the same as being ignorant of pronunciation rules. Many entries should be culled.

I suggest that the scope of this page be narrowed considerably to names that are genuinely counterintuitive rather than those for which some speakers are merely unaware of the standard pronunciation rules. For example, Featherstonhaugh/Fanshaw, Tagliaferro/Tulliver, Marjoribanks/Marshbanks are worth including, but Hermione or Penelope are not. A pronunciation that has drifted a little due to changes in spelling or vowel/consonant shifts in the language over time is not counterintuitive to an educated native speaker; neither is a loan word which has been anglicised (Beauchamp/Beecham), or a word which has been mildly abbreviated but has not elided entire syllables (Bicester/Bister)

A word should only be included here as counterintuitive if it passes this test: it cannot be pronounced correctly, even by an educated native speaker, unless they have previously been told the correct pronunciation. Literally, it cannot be intuited.

I admit a few entries are borderline under this definition; Menzies & Dalziel (Meengis and Dayell) are not counterintuitive to an educated Scot, but would be to any Sassenach who was not aware that the 'z' was originally a different letter now missing in English orthography which was pronounced roughly like the sound represented by 'ng'; Worcester/Wooster may be too much of an elision to skate by on the elision exception (Pron. "Woorster" becomes "Wooster"); Mainwaring suffers a vowel shift and de-emphasises the 'w' to become Manaring; but there are far fewer of these problematic borderline calls than there are of names which are included here solely because the person who added them is ignorant of English pronunciation rules or those of the languages from where many of the names came - there is no excuse for including any of Anthony, Caleb, Chloe, Chloë, Geoffrey, Freda, Hermione, Hugh, Isaac, Isla, Liza, Malachi, Michael, Naomi, Näomi, Penelope, Phoebe, Sonny, Thomas, Vaughan, Vaughn, Wynonna, Zachary, or Zoe, all of which would be pronounced correctly by most native speakers of English on first sight. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.116.98.136 (talk) 02:34, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

Table/ IPA-Less Pronunciation Key/ Rename

Why don't we make a table for the names and add a section for how the names would be spelled if the followed pronunciation conventions of the respective country? Also can we have a more catchy and recognizable name for this thing? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zontas (talk • contribs) 02:57, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Help with IPA

I want to add the Canberra, Australia suburb "Fairbairn", that is pronounced "Fair-burn". This site pronounces it more like "Fair-bear-n", but locals say it like "Fair-burn". How do I support/reference the local pronunciation? And can someone help me with the IPA pronunciation? Thanks. peterl (talk) 16:48, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Hello, Peterl. The YouTube pronunciation /ˈfɛərbɛərn/ is not at all counterintuitive, but judging by the way Australians I know say Melbourne, I guess that in Canberra they say /ˈfɛərbən/, or possibly /ˈfɛərbɜːrn/, as you suggest. I cannot find any reference online, but there are plenty of unreferenced entries on this page. By the way, hover over the elements of the IPA spellings, to see which sounds are represented. I hope this helps. LynwoodF (talk) 23:05, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

That's great! Thanks LynwoodF. peterl (talk) 10:03, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

Glad to be of help, Peterl. LynwoodF (talk) 13:02, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

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Dubious names

• Betjeman - doesn't seem that counterintuitive. The only English pronunciation that makes sense for "tj" is /tʃ/, as /tdʒ/ would pick up a vowel (/tədʒ/), and /tʒ/ has a voicing conflict. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jerdle (talk • contribs) 17:14, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Renaming proposal

I wonder if "counterintuitive" is a POV statement and is wholly dependent on what is familiar to the reader or to a certain group of readers, which is not WP:GLOBAL. It may be counterintuitive for a native English speaker, but might not be counterintuitive for, say, a Brit vs. an American, or for a Scot or a Native American, or a latinophone or francophone, or anyone familiar with the linguistic origin of the name.

I suggest "List of names in English-speaking countries that are frequently mispronounced." The word "frequently" isn't perfect, but it's less contentious than "counterintuitive" which is much more subjective.

Honestly the page structure of this meta-list is problematic. Place names and surnames are lumped together, as are place names of different countries who speak English differently. IMO better to separate place names geographically and first/last names ethnically/by heritage.

- Keith D. Tyler ¶ 23:03, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Maybe to English irregular name pronunciations? I'm all for the change, given the article title is too lengthy and unintuitive to look up. Starbeam2 (talk) 18:29, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

I should be something to the effect of "names with irregular spellings". The pronunciations are the words per se. The spellings are an auxiliary tool that we use to record them for longer. Nardog (talk) 18:37, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

That's a good point. How is 'English names spelled irregularly'? Starbeam2 (talk) 21:31, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Or maybe more defensively, "English names spelled unconventionally"? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 10:32, 12 May 2020 (UTC) No, on second thoughts, 'irregular' is better. My concern is that 'regular' presupposes a rule, but there isn't one. In England, one [HMQ??] might say 'in a manner inconsistent with received pronunciation' but what about AU, CA, IRE, NZ, US? 'Irregular is the least worst option, certainly vastly better than the present blatantly opinionated title, so let's go with that one. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 15:18, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

Welp, going to do it tomorrow, any last objections? Starbeam2 (talk) 12:34, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

I've done the renamings. Starbeam2 (talk) 17:10, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Delete names that are transliterations of names in other languages

A number of the entries in this article are not really English (language), they are transliterations of names in other languages (First Nations, Hindi, Irish, Welsh etc). It seems to me that they really should not be listed because it is entirely unreasonable to expect them to be pronounced according to the conventions of English. Does anyone have a convincing argument for their retention? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 17:37, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Chatham, Ontario

I know there's a place with that name already in the UK, so it might be covered there, but there's also a similarly spelt city in Ontario pronounced "Chat-Ham", which is counterintuitive to the "th" sound. And I've heard someone refer to it as "Chay-tham", which is incorrect. Infinity Project (talk) 06:44, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Colin Powell was not a “politician.” He never ran for any office. 2601:183:4880:EFC0:180A:1C5A:2980:C71A (talk) 17:23, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Respellings

I fixed all respellings to make sure they are all correct, including adding another s to not make a ‘z’ sound and h after g before e, i, and y. Güiseppi669 (talk) 09:07, 28 April 2024 (UTC)