User talk:Sanctum

Here are some tips to help you get started:

Try the Tutorial, and feel free to experiment in the test area.
If you need help, post a question at the Help Desk
Eventually, you might want to read the Manual of Style and Policies and Guidelines.
Remember Wikipedia:Neutral point of view
Explore, be bold in editing pages, and, most importantly, have fun!

Good luck!

P.S. One last helpful hint. To sign your posts like I did above (on talk pages, for example) use the '~' symbol. To insert just your name, type ~~~ (3 tildes), or, to insert your name and timestamp, use ~~~~ (4 tildes).

Industrial

Moved from User talk:128.120.181.227:

You have put in some valuable information in industrial music, but please do not remove material without discussing it first on the Talk:industrial music page. You have one particular interpretation of the style, which is a particular point of view, but wikipedia policy is Wikipedia:neutral point of view, which attempts to establish a consensus and to cite sources backing up those claims. I have reverted the article to it's previous version, awaiting a discussion. Thanks. --Lexor|Talk 02:14, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I have restored much of your text on industrial music, and I have more clearly separated out the more pure industrial subgenres from spinoff/crossover genres such as EBM etc, so hopefully this addresses your concerns without having to delete whole chunks. Please followup on the Talk page. Cheers. --Lexor|Talk 02:14, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Signing posts

Hi, you only need to sign your posts on Talk page (not on the article page itself). ---Lexor|Talk 02:21, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

More Industrial

Look, I don't know what it is you're trying to gain by making personal attacks on the Talk:industrial music page, but railing on what you assume about me isn't going to make for a better entry. Saying "DJ's dont play industrial" is more than patently false, it doesn't contribute anything valid to the conversation at hand. We're all here for the same reason, right? To make a better entry.

Can you please put aside whatever personal axes you have to grind, and we can find middle ground? Twiin 06:33, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I'm not going to pretend to respect your opinions for a second. We can work things out AND call each other "fags", they do it all the time in gay bars. So if the idea of a division between the two waves works, would you be okay having the note mentioning some do not consider the second wave of music to be industrial, but that the popular opinion is that this music is a continuation of industrial. I think that's unbiased. Just mention us lonely folk that know what industrial really is, then you can tell all the readers that it's hogwash because the 'popular' opinion is that EBM, synthpop, futurepop, etc are industrial. I'm going to make some minor changes, I'll paste them here and you can tell me if it's alright with you. Sanctum 06:49, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Listen: I don't think synth/futurepop are Industrial. I don't play them, I don't book the bands. I don't know why you seem so insistent on 'knowing' who I am or what I do, or who I work with. I'm more than happy to have a note saying that there are a number of people (including artists listed in the 2nd/3rd waves) who do not consider 2nd/3rd wave music to be industrial, or what-not.

You don't have to 'pretend' to respect my opinions, but you -do- have to respect the other people on this Wiki. Them's the rules. Twiin 06:55, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Okay I moved industrial rock down to the second-wave genres because those artists came around in the early late 80's/early 90's. I made minor changes to Industrial Music Today. I'm happy with it as it stands, let me know if you have some issue with it. You might want to use three equals instead of the formatting the second wave currently has so the genres show up as subsets of the second-wave in that box on the top. Sanctum 07:03, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I'm not happy with the changes, as I feel that the page itself needs a re-write (as does Tuf-Kat) -- Hence why I posted my proposed outline for a re-write. Instead of making changes to the main article itself, why don't you let me know what changes you'd like on the outline I proposed, so we can agree on a framework to rebuild? Twiin 07:04, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

As I mentioned on the discussion page, I don't think there is a 3rd wave. There has been a continuous stream of experimental and avant-garde industrial, the recent popularization of powernoise doesn't make it new. I feel that death industrial also belongs in the first wave because it's concepts date back to NON's early work.

I've taken issue too many times here, so if you feel there is a third wave that should be added then so be it. I just wish for powernoise, death industrial, and dark industrial to remain listed in the first wave. Sanctum 07:20, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with putting 80s acts like Grey Wolves/In Slaughter Natives and related genres in 1st wave -- but I don't think Powernoise as it exists now (and by Powernoise I'm referring to the 'ant-zen sound' - Converter/Asche/P.A.L/Imminent/Winterkalte) has any real connection to 1st wave artists like TG/NON. So can we agree on death/dark industrial as 1st wave, and powernoise as 3rd? Twiin 07:29, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Bloody Fist and Ant-Zen both started releasing powernoise in '94. It's not an ant-zen style, the genre doesn't really belong to any specific label. Powernoise came out of power electronics, it's simply rhythmic noise. It didn't incorporate any new wave influences or any of the styles associated with the second wave, powernoise just took something as basic as rhythm and added it to noise.

Now forgive me for addressing what I think your motive is here, and don't mind this if I guess wrong. Powernoise is real popular at those clubs, and you want it listed with the rest of the genres you consider industrial, is that it? Well I'm just arguing that although it's one of the popular genres commonly associated with all the genres you consider industrial, powernoise is a derivation of the purely industrial sound and should be listed with the other experimental styles. Sanctum 22:24, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I'm not a 'powernoise DJ', if that's what you mean. I play '77 Throbbing Gristle, I play new releases from modern industrial labels, and most everything in between. The next concert I'm going to is the CMI show in NY. I don't have a particular attachment to powernoise -- I'm simply trying to fairly represent the varied sound that is widely considered 'industrial music' in the year 2004. Twiin 23:00, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)