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this page is highly irresponsible and could put a mans life at risk. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.70.70.104 (talk) 23:22, 14 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

some sources state

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You say some sources state he was behind the Northern Bank Raid but you fail to mention those sources, which is I believe Wiki policy 80.177.152.156

WikiProject class rating

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This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as stub, and the rating on other projects was brought up to Stub class. BetacommandBot 05:51, 8 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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Volunteer restored

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Since it's the correct term used by academics, despite the laughable claim it's a "hotly debated term".

  • Inside the IRA by Andrew Saunders (Edinburgh University Press) but the revelation that it had been an IRA volunteer who had accidentally shot McIlhone
  • The IRA, 1968-2000: An Analysis of a Secret Army by J. Bowyer Bell (Routledge) The great ritual of Ireland is not in possession of church or state but rather occurs, appropriately, in a graveyard when an IRA volunteer is buried
  • Times of Troubles: Britain's War in Northern Ireland by Andrew Sanders (not to be confused with Andrew Saunders above) (Edinburgh University Press) O'Hagan's status as an IRA volunteer remains unclear to this day.
  • Walking Away from Terrorism: Accounts of Disengagement from Radical and Extremist Movements by John Horgan (Routledge) remaining involved and disengaging between one major IRA volunteer's experiences and those of contemporary Al Qaeda foreign fighters
  • Ruairí Ó Brádaigh: The Life and Politics of an Irish Revolutionary by Robert White (Indiana University Press) By the time the first IRA volunteer was killed in action in South Armagh
  • Provisional Irish Republican Army and the Morality of Terrorism by Timothy Shanahan (Edinburgh University Press) As Anthony McIntyre, a former IRA volunteer

etc etc etc. There is no "hot debate" among academics about the correctness of the term. FDW777 (talk)

Where is the evidence there is any "hot debate" among academics over a straightforward, official, factual description ? FDW777 (talk) 20:30, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Further evidence among academics.

  • The Provisional Irish Republican Army and the Development of Mortars by Gary Ackerman (Journal of Strategic Security) The local unit and South Armagh volunteers
  • Gunrunners: The Covert Arms Trail to Ireland by Sean Boyne (O'Brien Press) IRA Volunteers tied him into a car containing a bomb
  • The I.R.A. by Tim Pat Coogan (St. Martin's Griffin) An IRA volunteer, Martin Doherty, tackled the Loyalists and managed to prevent the detonation of the bomb, but was killed in the process
  • 25 Years of Terror: The IRA's war against the British by Martin Dillon (Bantam Books) An IRA volunteer with similar characteristics was Patrick Magee
  • Armed Struggle: The History of the IRA by Richard English (Pan Books) He was again arrested, in October 1976, in Dunmurry, Belfast, after an IRA operation: they had bombed the Balmoral Furnishing Company in a hit involving nine IRA Volunteers
  • A Secret History of the IRA by Ed Moloney (Penguin Books) The Executive chooses the members of the Army Council and selects replacements when vacancies occur; but its more important role is to act as the voice and conscience of ordinary IRA Volunteers
  • The Irish War: The Military History of a Domestic Conflict by Tony Geraghty (Fire and Water) In March 1986, after an IRA volunteer killed himself through reckless handling of a loaded launcher
  • Playing the 'Green Card' - Financing the Provisional IRA: Part 1 by John Horgan & Max Taylor (Terrorism and Political Violence) Its principal activities include volunteer training, funding, and the storage and movement of armaments
  • Stakeknife: Britain's Secret Agents in Ireland by Greg Harkin & Martin Ingram (O'Brien Press) Burns was a willing agent, and began providing valuable information to his handlers, information on every IRA volunteer
  • The Intelligence War against the IRA by Thomas Leahy (Cambridge University Press) Thereafter, the list of vehicles gathered could help potentially catch IRA volunteers travelling in their own or in stolen cars
  • Making Sense of the Troubles: A History of the Northern Ireland Conflict by David McKittrick & David McVea (Penguin Books) So many were being killed that Adams as Sinn Féin president publicly appealed to IRA volunteers in 1989 to avoid such incidents
  • The Long War: The IRA and Sinn Féin by Brendan O'Brien (O'Brien Press) IRA volunteers and Sinn Féin members had put their trust in the leadership
  • Special Category: The IRA in English Prisons, Vol. 2: 1978-1985 by Ruán O’Donnell (Irish Academic Press) In America, where the 'political exception' calused restated by the McMullen judgement in 1979 had barred the transfer of IRA Volunteers
  • A Broad Church: The Provisional IRA in the Republic of Ireland, 1969–1980 by Gearóid Ó Faoleán (Merrion Press) Border IRA volunteers were particularly nonplussed
  • IRA: The Bombs and the Bullets: A History of Deadly Ingenuity by Andy Oppenheimer (Irish Academic Press) Provisional IRA volunteers could walk freely through housing estates and rural areas without hindrance
  • Provos The IRA & Sinn Féin by Peter Taylor (Bloomsbury Publishing) Just over two months later, on 4 September 1970, a Provisional IRA Volunteer, Michael Kane, was killed
  • Out of the Ashes: An Oral History of the Provisional Irish Republican Movement by Robert White (Merrion Press) Every one of them was killed alongside a male Provisional IRA volunteer

I will be restoring the correct term. FDW777 (talk) 15:09, 7 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"gushing"

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@Financefactz: the use of AP is permitted, see WP:ABOUTSELF. Further, the sentences you removed it from are as follows

  • He also played a key role in the Maze Prison escape, the biggest prison break in UK and Irish penal history. That he played a key role isn't disputed, see for example The Dynamics of the Armed Struggle by J. Bowyer Bell
  • This then led to his attempts to join the IRA. The effect of Bloody Sunday on IRA recruitment is well documented, I'm sure the reader is benefited by explaining Storey's motivations.
  • At sixteen, he became a member of the IRA. If you prefer we can simply leave this out and have him interned for absolutely no reason on the day he turns 17? I don't think you'd like that...
  • He was arrested leaving the courthouse and charged with a shooting-related incident. That he was arrested and charged with a shooting straight after leaving court is hardly "gushing".
  • That August, after a soldier was shot, he was arrested in possession of a rifle and was convicted for the first time, being sentenced to eighteen years' imprisonment. The only potentially "gushing part is that it was his first conviction, but since this is referenced to The Irish Troubles: A Generation of Violence, 1967-92 there is no problem.
  • Having spent over twenty years in prison, much of it on remand, his final release came in 1998, and he again became involved in developing republican politics and strategy. Given he's accused of being a memeber of the IRA's Army Council who do just that, this isn't problematic.
  • On 11 January 2005 Ulster Unionist Member of Parliament for South Antrim David Burnside told the British House of Commons under parliamentary privilege that Storey was head of intelligence for the IRA. Accusations of criminal behaviour from a political opponent, how "gushing" can it get?

On numerous instances you left sentences unreferenced, or partially unreferenced since the existing references don't cover the whole sentence. I know, as I added many of the non-AP references. Should you wish to improve the article further by upgrading more of the AP references to books, news articles and so on you are welcome to do so. FDW777 (talk) 09:02, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have no obligation to improve an article only to remove not NPOV content. An Phoblacht is not a reliable source to cite 6 times in a very short article about an IRA member and Sinn Fein politician whatever your thoughts on the man's actions. Trying to establish An Phoblaht as a neutral source is ridiculous when another source could easily be used if you wished. I have no obligation to find these sources. I have changed none of the narrative in the article as your comments above appear to suggest. I suggest you review the edits again. Financefactz (talk) 10:35, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Again, see WP:ABOUTSELF. Your claim of "gushing" is nothing to do with the content AP is referencing. FDW777 (talk) 10:39, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
If you want to use another source, go right ahead. There's nothing stopping you. FDW777 (talk) 10:40, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have not said this WP page is gushing rather that An Phoblacht is gushing. You will often see for sports persons that their height and weight is linked to their own websites or their own sports team websites where they have a direct incentive to embellish their physical characteristics. The same principal applies here. WP:ABOUTSELF is to be used for non contentious information and certainly shouldn't be the base upon which a significant portion of the article is written. I have no obligation to reference or cite an article, rather if you want to keep the information it is you who must find a reliable and independent NPOV source. A Sinn Fein propaganda newsletter should not be used as the core source for this article no more so than finegael.ie should be used as the spine of the Leo Varadkar article.

WP:ABOUTSELF that could typically be used would be a political party name, name of the individual, age etc. In the case of An Phoblacht these are not valid as it is directly linked to an illegal organisation's propaganda machine and therefore devoid of credibility.[1]Financefactz (talk) 11:58, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but the "gushing" claim is completely irrelevant when, as demonstrated, none of the content that's actually referenced by it is "gushing". What specific content in the article that is referenced by AP do you believe is devoid of credibility? There was a discussion at WP:RSN where it was found that AP can be used in connjunction with WP:ABOUTSELF, you are welcome to start a new discussion there to overturn that consensus. FDW777 (talk) 12:08, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Also I currently count 41 footnotes to references other than AP, which clearly means that the article is not based primarily on such sources. FDW777 (talk) 12:25, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "IRA and Sinn Fein newspaper An Phoblacht to close". IrishCentral.com. 10 December 2017. Retrieved 27 August 2020.
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