Talk:Caucasian Albania

New Map

The map is clearly wrong. It contains regions that were not part of caucasian Albania. It never extends to Sevan lake, same with caucasian Iberia.

Nope, this map is based on the work of Hewsen (Armenia: A Historical Atlas). --HistoryofIran (talk) 20:32, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

It is not. Hewsen's map clearly indicates a difference between actual "Caucasian Albania/Aran" and territory that Persia later annexed from its vassal state Armenia and added to its vassal state Caucasian Albania. As well as using different shading to distinguish the two territories (shading which the map here doesn't have), and different titling (only the original territory is labelled Aran / Albania), Hewsen's map also states: "Classical sources are unanimous in marking the river Cyrus (Kur) the frontier between Albanian and Armenia. Only in the late 4th C AD did the Armenian principalities of Artsakh Utik, Gardman, Sakashen, and Kolt pass under permanent Albanian rule". 78.149.46.96 (talk) 02:43, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

Sigh, what era do you think this map is supposed to represent? 3rd-century BC? It is obviously after the 4th-century AD, even the caption says so. The map is a representation of the Albanian kingdom and what it ruled back then, end off. This WP:JDLI is getting too much now. --HistoryofIran (talk) 13:28, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

HistoryofIran this map is wrong. Sotk (Sawdk) has never been part of Albania, and on the original map its borders are even highlighted separately. According to Hewsen (or rather Eremyan) Sotk could have been part of the province of Artsakh (or rather, the ruling house of Sotk also ruled Artsakh), but after Artsakh was lost to Albania in 387, Sotk became part of the province of Syunik (pp. 101-102). Hewsen emphasized that there is no evidence for Eremyan's suggestion that Sotk was part of Artsakh (p. 119). On page 85 (map No. 65) you can see the borders of Armenia after the division of 387 until the year 591, where it is clearly seen that all the lands around Lake Sevan remained part of Armenia

(Hewsen, p. 101-102) The exact status of Arc'ax within the Arsacid kingdom is unknown. We hear of no princes of Arc'ax, and Eremyan thought that it must have belonged to the princes of Sawdk' (Cawdk'), a district at the southeast corner of Lake Sevan. In any case, Arc'ax was lost to Albania in 387, while Sawdk' remained as one of the districts of Siwnik'.

In addition, your map contradicts most (all?) other authoritative sources on the borders of Caucasian Albania. --Rs4815 (talk) 19:16, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

@Rs4815: You're right, the map Hewsen shows is different from this one. Also, it's not my map; it's @Golden: --HistoryofIran (talk) 00:07, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

@Rs4815 and HistoryofIran: I no longer have access to Hewsen's book. I would appreciate it if one of you could email me Hewsen's map so I can make corrections based on that. — Golden ^{call me maybe?} 10:25, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

@Golden: The link will expire in 7 days [1]. --HistoryofIran (talk) 11:36, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Here is the map. --Rs4815 (talk) 11:59, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Thank you both. I'll take a look at it over the weekend. — Golden ^{call me maybe?} 13:47, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

@HistoryofIran: The map that Rs4815 sent differs from the Hewsen map on page 41. In addition to the removal of Cawdk, the differences also include changes to the Armenia-Albania border north of Lake Sevan in Tashir and the addition of Lpink to Albania. I'm not too familiar with these changes and would like to know if you think they are accurate enough to make. — Golden ^{call me maybe?} 15:49, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

It's the same map, mine is just of horrible quality, making it hard to see what's what. We should stick to the one posted by Rs4815. --HistoryofIran (talk) 17:11, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

@Rs4815 and HistoryofIran: I created a new vectorized version of the map based on the one provided by Rs4815. I also made corrections to some city, region names and added the ancient coastline as provided by Hewsen on page 41. Take a look: File:Caucasian Albania in 5th and 6th centurires.svg — Golden ^{call me maybe?} 19:14, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

@Golden: I'm not sure about the need to show the ancient coastline. As for Lpink. Until 387, this region was either a vassal of Albania, or part of it, but Albania lost control over it after 387, when this territory was taken from them by the Persians (along with the Armenian Paytakaran). If this map shows the situation after 387, then Lpink should not be part of Albania, but if the map shows the entire period of the existence of the Albanian kingdom, then both Lpink and the lands south of the Kura should be highlighted in different colors or shaded with the corresponding legend, which is — up to 387 Albania controlled Lpink but did not control the lands south of the Kura, and after 387 the lands south of the Kura were transferred to it, but Albanians lost the Lpink.

Hewsen, page 60: It should be noted that the territory that these people inhabited could not have formed a separate kingdom as early as the Arsacid period, for there is no such indication in classical sources, which include all of southeastern Caucasia (north of the River Kur) within Albania. Rather, the emergence of the Lupenian kingdom must have been a consequence of the loss of Albanian control of its easternmost districts after the partition of Armenia in 387, when the Persians gave the Albanians large territories in Eastern Armenia south of the Kur while at the same time depriving them of certain other lands formerly under their control north of the Kur.

--Rs4815 (talk) 19:11, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Hewsen shows the ancient coastline on page 41. I think it’s relevant enough to include because it provides context for how close Albania was to the sea at that time. Regarding Lpink and lands south of Kura, feel free to edit the map yourself since it is now vectorized. If not, you may have to wait a week or two for me to edit it since I'm currently busy irl. — Golden ^{call me maybe?} 19:26, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

@Golden: I waited over a month) Can you at least update this file. It is more widely used than the new one you created. --Rs4815 (talk) 13:55, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

I created the .svg map so that I wouldn't have to make every little change myself. If you're able to make the change, please go ahead. If not, I'm afraid I won't be able to do it either as it's difficult for me to find the time. As for the .png map, I've updated it using the .svg map. — Golden ^{call me maybe?} 14:07, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

Armemia?

What is "Greater" Armenia? If Armenia has no history (as a state), then there is no point in inventing it. Yes, the Armenian people are ancient, and they gave birth on the territory of Caucasian Albania. But no "great" Armenias have ever existed. Thanks for understanding. 5.197.255.228 (talk) 17:58, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

It happens to be an alternative name of Kingdom of Armenia mentioned in that article. Swapping it to Kingdom of Armenia per article's title and as a more neutral term looks reasonable. Brandmeister^talk 19:05, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

IP is currently on a nonsense spree, writing WP:FORUM ish comments about his dislike of the concept of Armenia as a state/country (currently on phone, so cba adding the diffs, look at their edits). If the IP read a book, they would realize that Armenia does in fact have a rich history as a state. Moreover, WP:RS routinely simply uses “Armenia” when referring to the area. Wikipedia is not a place for WP:SOAPBOXing either. HistoryofIran (talk) 21:27, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

HistoryOfIran, thank you for noticing my review and taking the time to reply. And yet you did not understand me. I have no enmity towards the Armenian people. There are no bad people, there are bad men in ties who impose their opinion on the people.🇦🇿🤝🏼🇦🇲

And the fact is that everyone who is an ally of Armenia accepts her version of history. Wikipedia is not a place for propaganda, but I am not promoting either. On the contrary, these articles about "great" Armenia propagate the history of the world according to Armenians. I ask you, if you don't even believe, read the history of Azerbaijan, just for experience. To know that if someone says one thing, it doesn't have to be true. Good luck, my Iranian friend. 5.197.255.228 (talk) 09:03, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

I'm not your friend and my ethnicity is none of your concern. Take this to a forum. --HistoryofIran (talk) 11:17, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

"Greater Armenia" refers to the ancient Kingdom of Armenia and is not an irredentist term. Is "Great Britain" an English invention too? AlenAcemyan (talk) 14:19, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

How about a more accurate map?

File:Кавказская Албания и сопредельные страны в 5-8 веке .н.э.jpg 5.197.255.243 (talk) 06:43, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

No Caucasian Albanian language?

'and only if there was any single "Albanian" language in the first place which is doubtful because the population of Albania/Aghvank was described as consisting of as many 26 different tribes).'

Ahem, we already have an article about the Caucasian Albanian/Aghwan language, we have a huge amount of texts in it that have been deciphered, and medieval Armenian sources themselves, as cited there, narrate how Armenian priests made the alphabet for the language and the translations into it (thereby acknowledging that the language existed, and that it was the main language of the area). Now it seems that while Azeri nationalists, as this article explains at length, want to minimise any historical Armenian presence in Azerbaijan by calling it 'Albanian', Armenian nationalists, including editors of this article, are in turn desperately trying to dismiss and minimise any non-Armenian element in the region's history and ideally deny that there was ever anything like a non-Armenian Albania to speak of, and are even willing to ignore their own historical tradition to that end. (And yes, you *can* have many tribes and yet one main language. It's unclear if the source cited contained the conclusion that there was no Albanian language; it may also have contained just the statement about number of the tribes, while the conclusion may be original research by the editor. Even if it does contain the statement, the source seems to be Armenian and can be expected to be no more unbiased on this subject than Azeri sources can.) 87.126.21.225 (talk) 20:38, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Emblem of the Caucasian Albania

I have recently posted my digitalization of Mingachevir column (The emblem of Caucasian Albania.svg) as the "emblem" of Caucasian Albania, which led to the revert of my edit due to the lack of the source. I have digitalized the (Base of a column with Albanian inscription.JPG) image, which is originally a photo of a column from the Mingachevir church complex Athoremmes (talk) 17:40, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Do you have a WP:RS that states this was their emblem and its significance? Could be a random symbol for all we know. HistoryofIran (talk) 17:42, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

I have found that it means the Christianisation of Caucasian Albania, will it suffice?

Athoremmes (talk) 19:39, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

What page(s)? HistoryofIran (talk) 20:12, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, pages 142 - 148

Athoremmes (talk) 20:34, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, I am missing something? It just analyses the symbol and says it symbolises the Christianisation of the Albanians? So how does this prove that this was their emblem? HistoryofIran (talk) 20:39, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Honestly I am not sure now that it should be indeed used, so let's omit it before more reliable sources come in.

Athoremmes (talk) 20:56, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Also, what do you think about this banner of Arran (Caucasian Albania) according to Vakhushti? Should it be included on this page? I've already included it on Arran page.

Athoremmes (talk) 12:01, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

It shouldn't, the website it links to is a random one and doesn't give any details. Also, Arran has a long history as a historical region, what is this supposed banner meant to represent? The people? A certain kingdom? And for what era? HistoryofIran (talk) 13:28, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

It is not from the website, but rather from the Description of the Kingdom of Georgia by Vakhushti Bagrationi and is meant to represent Arran when it was the part of the kingdom of Georgia. The book was inscribed onUNESCO's Memory of the World Register in 2013, which means that it is a reliable source. Wikipedia already uses Vakhushti arms for the Principiality of Svaneti, Principiality of Samtskhe and the Avar Khanate. Moreover, North and South Ossetias use Vakhushti COA as its official arms. Athoremmes (talk) 13:59, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

is meant to represent Arran when it was the part of the kingdom of Georgia.

According to what WP:RS? Also, I can see you replaced it with your own custom made flag [2]. What WP:RS state that they used those colors? I am sorry if I sound harsh, but we have to ultimately follow what WP:RS says, which many articles don't, but that's irrelevant per WP:OTHER. For example, in a WP:GA or WP:FA article, everything has to be sourced. Trust me, I want a flag/emblem as much as you, but it has to be done right, i.e. in accord with the Wiki policies and scholarship. HistoryofIran (talk) 01:56, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

I have already cited WP:RS, e. g. the book of Vakhushti.

I ultimately see no reason why there is a custom made digitalizations of Vakhushti emblems in the principality of Svaneti, Samtskhe-Saatabago, Mingrelia pages, but isn't one for Arran and Shirvan, though Vakhushti made emblems for them too. Athoremmes (talk) 06:08, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, but you have not. Where does he mention that that was the flag used when Arran was a Georgian province? See WP:CITE. And where did you get those colors from? HistoryofIran (talk) 08:54, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

I got these colors from the map annotated by Vakhushti from Description of the Kingdom of Georgia, which is inscribed on UNESCO's Memory of the World Register. You can see a map of better quality there. BTW, it is from the Kingdom of Georgia article. Athoremmes (talk) 15:33, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

I got these colors from the map annotated by Vakhushti from Description of the Kingdom of Georgia, which is inscribed on UNESCO's Memory of the World Register

Sorry, this is vague and the link doesn't work.

You can see a map of better quality there. BTW, it is from the Kingdom of Georgia article.

This however, is more in line what I was asking for. Now we know where you got the colors from, and one can see that it is meant to portray the flag of the regions under Georgian rule. Please cite that map in the relevant flag uploads so it doesn't appear as a typical fan-made fictional flag, eg like how I cited the sources I used for this map [3]. And I would appreciate it if you also specified in both the caption of your flags in Commons and the ones added here that this is meant to portray the flag of x region under Georgian rule according to the Description of the Kingdom of Georgia by Vakhushti, so the readers don't think anything else. HistoryofIran (talk) 23:52, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Done

Athoremmes (talk) 15:06, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, I've added the link for easier access, hope you don't mind. HistoryofIran (talk) 20:11, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! Athoremmes (talk) 20:37, 30 September 2024 (UTC)