Talk:Minotaur

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Source for Theseus killing the Minotaur with a sword

This article says that "Theseus killed the Minotaur with the sword of Aegeus and led the other Athenians back out of the labyrinth." I read 5 sources for the story of Theseus and the Minotaur: Diodorus Siculus (Bibliotheca historica, Book IV), Hyginus (Fabulae), Pseudo-Apollodorus (Bibliotheca), Plutarch (Life of Theseus) and Pausanias (Description of Greece). None of them says that Theseus used a weapon to kill the Minotaur. In fact, the only time a writer specified how Theseus killed the Minotaur was when Pseudo-Apollodorus explained Theseus used his fists (Bibliotheca, E.1.9). What is the source for the account of the sword?

ICE77 (talk) 09:02, 1 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I added a citation needed tag for the missing source that claims Theseus used a sword to kill the Minotaur.

ICE77 (talk) 23:40, 19 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I still don't see a source for Theseus killing the Monotaur with a sword. It's been there for quite a while now. Is it about time to remove the missing source and the entire sentence since it's unsourced? If anybody has a source speak up. This has been a mystery for me for quite some time!

ICE77 (talk) 19:38, 19 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It's a myth, retold many times, so there are many versions. Hamilton, following Apollodorus, says he used his fists. Bullfinch (who at least in my edition gives no sources) says he used a sword given him by Ariadne. Graves says: "but whether he killed the Minotaur with a sword given him by Ariadne or with his bare hands, or with his celebrated club, is much disputed." Graves sources this paragraph to "Scholiast on Homer's Odyssey xi. 322, quoted by Pherecydes; Homer: Iliad xviii. 590; Eustathius on Homer's Odyssey xi. 320; Apollodorus: Epitome i. 9; Ovid: Heroides iv. 115; Pausanias: iii. 18.7." The club and the sword figure in several Renaissance and later depictions of the myth, as well as several medieval MSS illustrations. Roman tile labyrinths seem to prefer the club (although it's not always clear what the implement is), while some Attic pottery show a sword (e.g. British Museum E84). -- Elphion (talk) 19:55, 20 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Based on what you stated it sounds to me the sword has no sources whatsoever. Then "Theseus killed the Minotaur with the sword of Aegeus and led the other Athenians back out of the labyrinth.[citation needed]" should be removed or it should be specifically stated that the only places where a sword is mentioned is through Bullfinch (unsourced) and Graves (speculation). Anything that comes out of artwork is pure adaptation or (mis)interpretation.

ICE77 (talk) 21:58, 11 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I don't agree. There's clear evidence for all three in Classical sources (which need not be written sources). As I said, it's a myth; there is no underlying reality, so no "accurate" version for sources to adhere to, and as it happens, different sources portray it differently (as is usually the case for mythological subjects). Graves's statement that the sources don't agree is not speculation; as I indicated above, he cites several sources. Sources specifying a sword don't always say where the sword came from, or disagree where it came from, so I've taken the reference specifically to Aegeus out. -- Elphion (talk) 22:48, 11 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree. Myth is not reality but lots of is documented under the forms of Hyginus to name one. I have read 5 sources and only heard of speculations on the sword. I still have to read a source that clearly tells of how Theseus killed the Minotaur with a sword. I did not see any reference to texts. I am not here to speculate but to find a written source for the sword.

ICE77 (talk) 06:35, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Why do you insist on a "written source"? There are many portrayals in the art of the time, for which I've given some references. Clearly, people for whom this was active mythology imagined Theseus using a sword, and the tradition continued at least through the Renaissance. That's what's reflected here. -- Elphion (talk) 15:24, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Etruscan Views Section

This section should probably just be deleted. The information in the first sentence has no citation and the section about the wine-cup is wrong. That's an Attic kylix which was discovered in Etruria; it's not an Etruscan kylix. This pretty much undermines the claim that this motif is never seen in Greek art. Unless anyone objects, I think this section should be removed or at the very least elaborated. --Basileus12345 (talk) 22:16, 5 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Wiki Education assignment: History of Ancient Greece

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 28 March 2023 and 9 June 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): BarbequeWater (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Wafflecone14, Wwustudent712.

— Assignment last updated by Johnstoncl (talk) 20:43, 20 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wiki Education assignment: Introduction to Mythology

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 16 January 2024 and 10 May 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Dylhayward156 (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Dylhayward156 (talk) 19:46, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]