Talk:Ethnic groups in Bosnia and Herzegovina

Untitled

I am not sure that this first statistic (95% of citizens, etc.) is correct. While it can be assumed that a person belongs to a certain ethnic group based on their name and surname, I think it's unfair to categorize people and to decide for them which group (if any) they should belong to. Not to mention that minorities which currently live in BiH (Roma, Jews, Montenegrins, Czechs, etc.) probably make up for more than the remaining 5% of the population. Also, what about the Others? I am more than sure that there's at least 10-15% of Others in BiH, especially after a recent article in Bosnian press which suggested that by 2050, the Others will be a minority which will outnumber the constitutive peoples in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

At least provide us with a citation, although I highly doubt that you can find an independent, reliable source for this type of information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.119.132.107 (talk) 17:08, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Also, counting red cells much? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.119.132.107 (talk) 17:10, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Comments:

M.H, your description of dialects in B-H sounds more complex than it is.

Is there some litterature on persecution of Catholics in Ottoman Empire? We know about ahdnama granting rights to franciscans.

Is there a better way to say "work on the land" ? (obradjivati zemlju)? How do you say in English nerodna godina? :)

I'd like you two to show this to some more eyes, hopefully we can straighten this out so it could replace all the contradictory stuff found on historical and ethnical articles. --Vedran 16:29, 9 Dec 2003 (UTC)

1. "till the land" (obrađivati zemlju); bad year(nerodna godina); yes, on persecution there are a few books, for instance by historians Srećko Džaja, Pavo Živković,e tc.-even in Ćorović "Istorija Srba"-it can be seen on the Web; also, some linx-putting aside pathetic overtones- http://www.referendum.8k.com/Povijest7.htm . For dialects- they are descrobed at http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Serbo-Croatian_language . Here's the paste: Although- it wouldnt be bad, just in order to dispell a few misty ideas, to present a diachronic table of Štokavian dialects and documents written in dialects:

1. the dialectal picture at the turn of the century (19/20) and ethnic/national affiliation:

New Štokavian

Štokavian-Ekavian (Vojvodina dialect, "eastern"): vastly Serbian

Štokavian-Ekavian (Šumadija dialect): vastly Serbian

Štokavian-Ikavian ("western"): vastly Croatian and Bosniak

Štokavian-Ijekavian ("southern"): Serbian and Montenegrin (predominantly-ca 60%), Croat (ca.20%) and Bosniak (ca. 20%)

Old Štokavian

Kosovo-Resava (Ekavian) dialect: vastly Serbian

Zeta dialect (Ijekavian): vastly Montenegrin

Slavonian dialect (Ikavian): vastly Croatian

Eastern-Bosnian dialect(Ijekavian): vastly Croat and Bosniak

Pre-1800 literature (sacral, secular, legal, commercial,philological,..) written in Štokavian vernacular:

vastly Croatian (sacral, secular, legal, philological,..). Written in Štokavian-Ijekavian ("southern") and Štokavian-Ikavian ("western"). Writers are from Dalmatia (Split, Dubrovnik, Korčila island, Zadar,..), Lika region, Slavonia, Bosnia and Herzegovina. Written mainly in Latin script, but also in Bosnian/Croatian Cyrillic. The sacral literature begins in 1380-1400, and secular in ca. 1480-1490. More than 95% of Štokavian vernacular texts before 1800 are Croatian.

there are instances of Bosnian Muslim Štokavian vernacular literature: Uskjufi's dictionary from 1630s and Kaimi's poetry in the 17th cent. First Bosnian Muslim vernacular poem is "Chirwat turkisi" (Croatian song), authored by Mehmed of Erdely (1579 ?). This literature is written mainly in Arabic script, with a few works in Bosnian Cyrillic

also, there are instances of pre-1800 Serbian Štokavian literature: these include works by Gavrilo Venclović, Jovan Rajić and Zaharija Orfelin (all in the 18th century). These texts are written in Serbian Cyrillic.

Link on dialects: http://ostava.012webpages.com/Slika%20dijalekata%20po%20D.%20Brozovicu.htm -also at Serbo-Croatian article page.

Mir Harven 21:37, 9 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I don't dispute this I just think that perhaps it's too broad for this article. Perhaps a "see also" to the Serbo-Croat language article is sufficient? --Vedran 12:47, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

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statistics

A recent genetical study showed that variance of genome is larger among members of the same nation than between nations Hmm, does this part make sense? Wouldn't it at least be "the same amount of variety"? 192.234.223.100 16:09, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

No, that doesn't make sense, and there are no sources cited to support that claims - quite the contrary:

The high frequency and diversity of Haplogroup I1b1* (P37.2) among populations of the Western Balkans lends support to the hypothesis that the Adriatic region of modern-day Croatia served as a refuge for populations bearing Haplogroup I1b1* during the last glacial maximum. These groups seem to be the ancestors of about 38% of modern day Croats (75% of Bosnian Croats).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_%28Y-DNA%29

and

Genetically, on the Y chromosome line, a majority (>87%) of Croats belong to one of the three major European Y-DNA haplogroups -- Haplogroup I (38%), Haplogroup R1a 35% and Haplogroup R1b 16%. The haplogroups J, E and G constitute together less than 10% - significantly lower than other populations in the region.[8]

Furthermore the dominant presence of haplogroup I is rather interesting. This group exists in Europe only and is fairly wide-spread, but in relatively small percentages. Its frequency in the Balkans is high, but the only populations that have similar levels of the I group are the Scandinavians. [9]

There are a number of relevant conclusions that can be drawn from the genetic data.

First of all it gives strong support to the theory that the region of modern day Croatia served as a refuge for northern populations during the last glacial maximum (LGM). After the LGM there was a migration to the north of the people whose offspring today form a significant portion of the three aforementioned Scandinavian populations. Those who decided to stay are the ancestors of about 38 per cent of modern day Croats.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theories_on_the_origin_of_Croats

Milejerkovic 05:12, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Ethnic Maps are INNACURATE - Request to Include non-copyrighted OHR Maps

Ethnic Maps (before and after the war) are inaccurate.

For accurate Ethnic Maps, one should consult maps issued by the Office of High Representative for Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Here is the link: http://www.ohr.int/ohr-info/maps/

We can include those maps into wikipedia, they are not copyrighted.

Bosniak 06:47, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

I visited the website you linked to and see no evidence that the maps there are not under copyright. Please provide evidence supporting your assertion that the maps can be legally reproduced on Wikipedia. —Psychonaut 09:48, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

External link

According to WP:EL links that should be avoided include links to "sites that are only indirectly related to the article's subject: it should be a simple exercise to show how the link is directly and symmetrically related to the article's subject." So, go for it...--Hadžija 12:34, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

For me the the link from IPWR was related to the subject of the article.--MaGioZal 12:52, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Bosnia-Herzegovina is a Nation

Bosnia-Herzegovina is a nation. Bosniaks, Bosnian Serbs, and Bosnian Croats are ethnic groups that comprise nation of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Therefore, the article should stay renamed as Ethnic Groups of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Bosniak 03:10, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Except that "groups" should be lowercase, (and, btw, you didn't fix the double redirects). Otherwise, I agree; "nation" in this sense was Bosglish/Serbglish/Croglish.
Actually, the title should in my opinion be "Ethnogenesis" in Bosnia and Herzegovina"; its original (and most current) scope was how the modern Serbs, Croats and Bosniaks achieved their respective identities; but I won't nitpick. Duja► 13:28, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Merge proposal

Please see Talk:Bosnians#Merging Duja► 11:18, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Constituent Peoples

"The term constituent refers to the fact that these three ethnic groups are explicitly mentioned in the constitution, and that none of them can be considered a minority or immigrant." -- That is potentially a very important legal-political fact. There is no footnote. Does anybody know where this comes from? Is the concept defined that way in their constitution? Or is it a principle of international law? Please, let's have a footnote. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.115.101.61 (talk) 00:27, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

A term for "Serb" or "Croat" as an autochthonous inhabitant was virtually unknown in Bosnia before 19th century

That is a lie, it's just stupid propaganda!

Here are 3 grand vezire´s from Bosnia who saw themselves as Croats e.g:

-Rüstem Pasha (Ottoman Turkish: رستم پاشا, Bosnian and Croatian: Rustem-paša Opuković) (ca. 1500 – 10 July 1561) was a Croatian from Bosnia who became an Ottoman general and statesman. He served as the Grand Vizier of Suleiman the Magnificent. Rüstem Pasha is also known as Damat Rüstem Pasha (Damat meaning Bridegroom to the Ottoman dynasty) and Hırvat Rüstem Paşa (Hırvat = Croat or Hrvat by Turkish historians).

-Hersekzade Ahmed Pasha or Hersekli Ahmed Paşa (Bosnian, Croatian: Stjepan Hercegović) was a Bosnian/Croatian Ottoman general and statesman from Hercegovina. Hersekli Ahmed Paşa is also known as Mahmut Paşa Hırvat (Hırvat = Croat) by modern Turkish historians.

-Mehmed-pasha Sokolovic (ca. 1510 – 79), born in eastern Bosnia near Visegrad, after having completed his higher education with outstanding honours, was asked by Suleiman II where he came from and he replied "from Croatia." (73) • "Suleiman the Magnificent - Sultan of the East" by Harold Lamb, it is clearly stated on pages 53, 117, 303, 311...that Sokollu Mehmet Paşa was Croat (ISBN=978-1-40677-271-5). Also in • "Lieber, Francis (1845). Encyclopædia Americana: A popular dictionary of arts, sciences,... Vol 13. Philadelphia: Columbia University Library." on page 345, Sokollu Mehmet Paşa is called renegade of Croatia.

A very important person in medieval Bosna was: -Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić (Kotor Varoš around 1350 – 1416) was a Ban of Croatia, Grand Duke of Bosnia and a Herzog of Split. He was the most prominent member of the Bosnian/Croatian noble House of Hrvatinić and the strongest of the three main large feudalists of early feudal medieval Bosnia. In 1403 he was named regent for Hungary, Croatia and Dalmatia, and was made Duke of Split. He was a prominent member of the Bosnian Church.

And that´s just a few persons.

You need to know Bosnia was only a small country in medieval times! The expansion of Bosnia went to Croatian cost.

The equivalence of the name of Bosniak and Croat in the early period of the Ottoman occupation of Bosnia is documented by the famous Turkish historian Aali (1542-1599) in his work Knhulahbar, also known as Tarihi Aali. He gave the following description of the properties of Croatian tribe (as he calls it) in Bosnia: As regards the tribe of the Croats, which is assigned to the river Bosna, their character is reflected in their cheerful mood; throughout Bosnia they are also known according to that river... [i.e. Croats = Bosniaks i.e. Bosnians]. Then follows an interesting passage describing virtues of the Croats in Bosnia. Let us cite it in Croatian, in Basagic's translation (the original text in the Arabic script and its translation can be seen in [Karihman], p. 78, with the Croatin translation being taken from Safvet-beg Basagic: Bossnjaci i Hercegovci u Islamskoj knjizzevnosti):

According the documents from the 15th and 16th centuries, Bosnian Muslims in central Bosnia and in Herzegovina called their language Croatian language and called themselves the Croats. Even today there are Bosnian Muslims with the second name Hrvat (= Croat). Probably the most interesting writings about the life in Ottoman Empire in the 16th century are numerous works published by Bartol Gyurgieuvits (1506-1566), who spent there 13 years as a slave.

The historical names of many officials in the Ottoman Empire reveal their origin (Hirwat = Hrvat or Horvat, which is a Croatian name for Croat):

Mahmut Pasha Hirwat (= Hrvat), Rustem Pasha Hrvat, Pijali Pasha Hrvat, Sijavus Pasha Hrvat , Memipaša Hrvat, Tahvilpaša Kulenović Hrvat etc. In the 16th century a traveler and writer Marco A. Pigaffetta wrote that almost everybody on the Turkish court in Constantinople knows the Croatian language, and especially soldiers. Marco Pigafetta in his "Itinerario" published in London in 1585 states: "In Istanbul it is customary to speak Croatian, a language which is understood by almost all official Turks, especially military men."

This can also be confirmed by the 1553 visit of Antun Vrančić, Roman cardinal, and Franjo Zay, a diplomat, to Istanbul as envoys of the Croat - Hungarian king to discuss a peace treaty with the Ottoman Empire. During the initial ceremonial greetings they had with Rustem Pasha Hrvat ( a Croat) the conversation led in Turkish with an official interpreter was suddenly interrupted. Rustem Pasha Hrvat asked in Croatian if Zay and Vrančić spoke Croatian language. The interpreter was then dismissed and they proceeded in the Croatian language during the entire process of negotiations.

Many of the Muslim Slavs in Bosnia-Herzegovina had a strong awareness of their Croatian descent, and even called themselves Muslim Croats, to distinguish from the Catholic Croats. Some of the most outstanding Croatian writers and intellectuals of the Muslim faith in Bosnia and Herzegovina are: • Edhem Mulabdic (1862-1954), • Adenaga Mesic (1868-1945), • Ivan Aziz Milicevic (1868-1950), • Safvet-beg Basagic (1870-1934), • Osman Nuri Hadzic (1869-1937), • Hasan Fehim Nametak (1871-1953), • Fehim Spaho (1877-1942), • Musa Cazim Catic (1878-1915), • Dzafer-beg Kulenovic (1891-1956), • Ahmed Muradbegovic (1898-1972), • Hasan Kikic (1905-1942), • Hamdija Kresevljakovic (1898-1959) • Alija Nametak (1906-1987), • Nahir Kulenovic (1929-1963), • Enver Colakovic (1913-1976), • Mehmedalija Mak Dizdar (1917-1971) • Muhamed Hadzijahic (1918-1978) • Asaf Durakovic (1940) • Ekrem Spahic (1945) etc. Anybody wishing to study the history of Islamic culture in Bosnia-Herzegovina seriously should consult numerous works of Hamdija Kresevljakovic (1888-1959), an outstanding Muslim Croat, member of the Croatian Academy of Sciences and Arts in Zagreb, author of an important monograph about history of Croatian literature in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Biographies of important Muslim Croats can be found in his ``Kratak pregled hrvatske knjige u Herceg - Bosni (A short survey of Croatian literature in Herzeg - Bosnia) printed in Sarajevo in 1912. For more information see [Karihman]. It should be noted that the literary and scientific activity of such intellectuals has been severely suppressed during the 70 years' Yugoslav period, resulting that today a very small percentage of the entire Muslim Slav population in BiH and Croatia has the awareness of its Croatian roots. --Zrin22 (talk) 17:12, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Bosnia and Herzeovina was Croatia at time when Herzegovina didn't exist and Bosnia was just a river. Ofc those people are Croats. In medieval, they called themselves Bosnians which is normal for that time, since there were no ethnicities, but even that is not completely true. There are numerous songs, writings or travel writings (ottomans or some neighbours) who called them Croats and language Croatian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.180.106.198 (talk) 16:55, 14 October 2015 (UTC)